Songwriting, Self-Discovery, and Turning Loss into Light with Garrett Owen

Garrett Owen’s music has the raw, rustic quality of a Texan, but his origin story is not that of your typical Texas troubadour. The son of career missionaries, Owen spent his childhood in Tanzania and Kenya, his adolescence in South Louisiana, before coming of age in Ecuador. 

In this episode, we dive into his album Memoriam, his songwriting process, and the techniques that make his music stand out. Garrett also shares how he balances live and studio performances, protects creative focus in a noisy world, and approaches stage nerves and performance with honesty.

We also talk about finding meaning in music on a small scale, giving songwriters permission to experiment, and how patience and persistence turn ideas into songs that truly connect.

Listen to Garrett's music on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/7y2CyDlhMd1el8HDgyYuTD?si=Tt-EcYVMTZCEazm6WSJtsQ

Garrett's website: https://garrett-owen.com/

https://garrettowen.bandcamp.com/

For more information, visit the podcast episode webpage. 

Chapters

• 0:15 Garrett’s Global Upbringing
• 3:45 Openness, Taste, and Eclectic Influences
• 7:43 What His Music Really Is
• 9:04 Discovering Guitar and Early Obsessions
• 12:40 Fingerstyle Foundations and Technique
• 18:29 Practice Habits and High School Years
• 19:32 Memoriam: Grief, Memory, Connection
• 22:30 Writing From Self, Characters, and Abstraction
• 27:01 Process: Letting Songs Emerge Over Time
• 30:01 Melody Inside Chords
• 33:16 Permission to Break Rules
• 36:35 Theory: Use, Limits, and Color
• 40:22 Rosemary and Thieves
• 45:45 Recording Surprises and Live vs Studio
• 49:15 Tech, Attention, and Making Space to Write
• 1:07:04 Stage Nerves, Reps, and Stagecraft
• 1:14:59 What He Hopes Listeners Will Carry
• 1:22:27 What’s Next: Stripped-Down Sessions & Closing

Transcript

Speaker 2
One of the things.

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Speaker 2
That keeps me going in life is that

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Speaker 2
after experiencing things that are unpleasant,

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Speaker 2
You can see things.

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Speaker 2
In that unpleasant thing that you went through

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Speaker 2
that are now beautiful.

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Speaker 1
super excited to have you on the podcast. My friend Dana, she was actually living in California this summer. Yeah.

00:01:02:20 - 00:01:05:07
Speaker 2
That's how this happened. Okay.

00:01:05:09 - 00:01:22:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, she was, in San Diego, and she went to and, kind of by chance, ended up at your show, and she texted me, she sent me a video and text me afterwards, and she was like, oh my gosh, I just saw the most amazing performance. So that's how I discovered you. So that was that was cool.

00:01:22:09 - 00:01:24:17
Speaker 2
Me thanks for telling me that. That's helpful.

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Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:01:25:00 - 00:01:31:15
Speaker 1
So you probably get this a lot, but I feel like your upbringing was very unique.

00:01:31:15 - 00:01:35:08
Speaker 1
I saw that you were born in San Antonio, which I'm, I was born there as well.

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Speaker 3
Oh, cool.

00:01:36:04 - 00:01:42:05
Speaker 1
But, you grew up going between Tanzania, Kenya, Ecuador

00:01:42:05 - 00:01:43:05
Speaker 1
Louisiana.

00:01:43:05 - 00:01:52:16
Speaker 1
What was that like for you growing up? And how do you feel like that kind of shaped you as a person or as a songwriter?

00:01:52:18 - 00:02:08:00
Speaker 2
I think it made me difficult to relate to as a person. I don't know. I feel a lot of times like, not a lot, but I have this one, one of the guys, they're open for a whole bunch. He just he just.

00:02:08:00 - 00:02:09:13
Speaker 3
Stop.

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Speaker 2
Telling people how many places I grew up. I think because he just got tired of hearing.

00:02:17:07 - 00:02:34:03
Speaker 2
Or hearing me just, like wax for four minutes about. And so he he started it is my friend Garrett. He's a songwriter and he lives in Texas. So I don't know. I think some people will find it off putting that. I'm willing to say a lot.

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Speaker 3
About.

00:02:35:14 - 00:02:56:20
Speaker 2
Where are you from? And I'll just give my whole spiel like, and some people don't. Some people get, I think, people that introduce me to their friends, some of them get tired and just feel some of them like feel and some of them, it's like it's new to them every time.

00:02:57:18 - 00:03:27:18
Speaker 2
So, I mean, most of my friends always call East Africa South Africa because for some reason, South Africa is the only Africa that everybody's heard of. But East Africa is like is a pretty specific region is like every everything. That's right underneath the horn. Like Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda, Ethiopia.

00:03:27:20 - 00:03:39:04
Speaker 2
The the, Rwanda that I say that one. Rwanda is in there. That's important.

00:03:44:13 - 00:04:09:12
Speaker 2
But it made me really open to a lot of stuff. Like when when I take personality tests and stuff, I always, I always come back as, like, like 99% open to stuff. Like, so, like I'm capable of developing, like, a lot of interests. I'm open to a lot of things. And in many ways, like food.

00:04:09:12 - 00:04:38:23
Speaker 2
I just like, like as many different cultures in their food as possible. And I'm always willing to try weird stuff. And as far as, like, the music, I wasn't used to the same way I, I well, let's see, I'm like, I'm using right now as, as props for my cell phone I'm using to prop up my phone here to do this interview I'm using.

00:04:38:23 - 00:04:53:14
Speaker 2
There's this 90s band called sponge, and there's an Aerosmith CD here, a stinky and a Queen CD and a Chet Baker CD.

00:04:53:16 - 00:04:59:20
Speaker 3
And what's, who who is it?

00:04:59:22 - 00:05:21:22
Speaker 2
I love her. What's her name? Ann Peebles. But. So it's like there's, like a bunch of rock and jazz, then and people's is like, oh, there's, like, quintessential R&B soul right there.

00:05:21:22 - 00:05:30:21
Speaker 2
my CD collection, or at least some of it is over there. And there's a bunch of Chet Baker looking at me.

00:05:30:23 - 00:05:37:12
Speaker 1
I know you said that you kind of listened to a lot of, like, heavy metal and jazz and kind of.

00:05:37:12 - 00:05:42:11
Speaker 1
not really what people consider your genre of music.

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Speaker 2
Yeah, I don't.

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Speaker 3
Really.

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Speaker 2
I mean, just my friends really. Like, I like those cats that have open for a much like Parker and David Parker Mills after me. It's like I still listen to them. I think I listen to them because now I have a relationship with their music because I stood behind a merch table trying to sell my merch while they're playing the big set every night for like three weeks or stuff like that.

00:06:17:11 - 00:06:27:17
Speaker 2
But yeah. Here. Pretty. Yeah. For the last three weeks, every time I get in my car listening to this Christian metal band called Blind Side.

00:06:27:19 - 00:06:30:09
Speaker 1
Okay. Or not? Heard of them?

00:06:30:11 - 00:06:32:15
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:06:32:17 - 00:06:41:14
Speaker 2
And there's a Christian death metal band called eternity, that I've also been listening to a ton recently.

00:06:46:23 - 00:07:17:09
Speaker 2
Yeah. And, well, and that kind of takes me to, like, a whole faith based conversation, which anybody can do what they want with that. But, like, I listen to these bands that happen to be Christian because I really love their music and the way they play guitar and stuff. I so my parents were missionaries, but I was, you know, I was I went like really far away from, any anything religious for a really long time.

00:07:17:09 - 00:07:25:07
Speaker 2
And now I kind of like, I consider myself Christian, but it's very much like, do my own thing with it.

00:07:25:09 - 00:07:26:15
Speaker 3
Is, but.

00:07:26:17 - 00:07:43:05
Speaker 2
Kind of my own version of it. It's very much up to, like, my interpretation of my relationship with God. Just some things that are super specific to me. I don't I don't get to church very often.

00:07:43:05 - 00:07:52:24
Speaker 1
if you had to describe your sound or the kind of music that you make, what would you say?

00:07:53:06 - 00:07:59:08
Speaker 3
Or where I said.

00:07:59:10 - 00:08:00:22
Speaker 3
I mean, I guess at this.

00:08:00:22 - 00:08:19:10
Speaker 2
Point I think it's become like a version of, of, like Americana or folk that is actually like, and influences are all, like really well hidden in there. But, but.

00:08:19:12 - 00:08:42:17
Speaker 2
Really when, when I go, when I'm even, when I'm just practicing stuff, I just realize so much that like, a ton of my songs are just jazz songs or rock songs posing as folk songs and Americana songs like the chord progressions are so very much like deeply derived from jazz and hard rock simultaneously that like.

00:08:42:19 - 00:08:43:18
Speaker 3
It's.

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Speaker 2
Like my songs are just kind of pretending to be folk music, but.

00:08:53:03 - 00:09:00:09
Speaker 2
I don't know, in their, in their creation, to me, they're, they're like very much these other things.

00:09:00:11 - 00:09:04:21
Speaker 3
Okay. Well.

00:09:04:23 - 00:09:16:06
Speaker 1
How did you discover your love for guitar and then songwriting?

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Speaker 3
I.

00:09:20:16 - 00:09:35:13
Speaker 2
My parents were gone for a week or two when I was in high school, and I had to stay at a friend's house, and this friend.

00:09:35:15 - 00:09:48:22
Speaker 2
Was 3 or 4 years older than me, and it was Eric. And I just hung out with him in his room while he was trying to learn Z.z tops and Grange by ear.

00:09:48:24 - 00:10:20:11
Speaker 2
And and that made me want to play like he. And he was trying to figure out how to play. He was trying to learn this song by ear. So he kept, you know, like were you, but you know, the all the rewind feature on like a real CD. Players and stuff. But he kept rewinding it and he was getting stuck at the solo and or maybe he wasn't even trying to learn solo, but it gets to a solo and he stops the CD.

00:10:20:16 - 00:10:21:24
Speaker 2
He just.

00:10:22:01 - 00:10:26:08
Speaker 3
Am. You guys are good. That's like.

00:10:26:10 - 00:10:29:08
Speaker 2
And,

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Speaker 2
I don't know, I already knew I like those songs, but, No, that was that was one of the. That was the main moment.

00:10:44:23 - 00:10:52:16
Speaker 2
I didn't I didn't start trying to sing, though, till I was in my 20s.

00:10:52:18 - 00:10:58:23
Speaker 2
I, when I started playing guitar, I really just wanted to be a guitar player. I wanted to play.

00:11:00:00 - 00:11:18:02
Speaker 2
I wanted to play metal, and. And then then, like, the next serious phase was wanting to play jazz and,

00:11:18:04 - 00:11:32:06
Speaker 2
Metal involves so much gear and, like, having to always be in a band that that wasn't to be accessible to me because I don't I don't go around like I was never that guy who was just like, going around trying to start a band.

00:11:32:08 - 00:11:33:09
Speaker 3
Okay.

00:11:33:11 - 00:11:49:07
Speaker 2
And and then when I was studying jazz in college, I was once again, like, you're not that person who's just going around trying to start a band. And that's that's difficult. If you're in a genre that definitely requires that.

00:11:49:09 - 00:11:50:18
Speaker 3
And then.

00:11:50:20 - 00:12:20:15
Speaker 2
I was in jazz ensembles all through two and a half years in college, but jazz was just so hard. But after two and a half years, I was like, I've had enough of this. I just I just want to do something that feels a lot simpler, especially like my, my earliest songs are are really simple because they're in response to how complicated and pain in the ass everything was in jazz school.

00:12:20:17 - 00:12:32:14
Speaker 2
But as you know, as I've, as I've aged now, I've my writing has gotten just more and more complicated over the years.

00:12:32:16 - 00:12:45:15
Speaker 1
Been. Yeah. You have some very, very intricate, very impressive fingerpicking, guitar that you do. So how old were you when you first picked up a guitar?

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Speaker 2
I start in, I, I claim that I started playing on my 14th birthday. That's what. That's what I to the kids.

00:12:56:00 - 00:13:00:11
Speaker 1
Okay. And did you ever take lessons or are you all self-taught?

00:13:00:13 - 00:13:02:16
Speaker 2
I was self-taught until I got to.

00:13:02:16 - 00:13:04:20
Speaker 3
College.

00:13:04:22 - 00:13:21:11
Speaker 2
So I, I, I everything I learned guitar, I learned from guitar magazines until I was in college from, from like 14. And you can learn a lot that way. You can learn a lot. Just you can.

00:13:21:17 - 00:13:21:19
Speaker 3
I.

00:13:21:19 - 00:13:53:20
Speaker 2
Mean, you can learn like all the basics of theory from guitar magazines, you can learn thousands of songs from guitar magazines. So guitar guitar magazines were my YouTube for like all the, all the 14 year olds now that are learning like so much guitar stuff just from YouTube and various places on the internet or guitar regimes were like that.

00:13:53:22 - 00:14:25:24
Speaker 2
And, and I love reading and I well, I love reading and I do sometimes the articles like the full or cover page articles in guitar magazines were really great. Like it was like a 18 page article on guns N roses in like the fifth or sixth guitar magazine that I ever bought. And and I read it over and over.

00:14:26:01 - 00:14:31:12
Speaker 2
It was just so entertaining.

00:14:31:14 - 00:14:33:10
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:14:33:12 - 00:14:56:20
Speaker 1
That's it's crazy to to think how you started learning for magazines because, I mean, I, I play guitar and I feel like I sort of taught myself up through the internet. And now I listen to your, your more recent work, and I feel like I couldn't even learn it through. It's a video tutorial because it's so much complex technique that you're doing.

00:14:56:20 - 00:15:06:11
Speaker 1
How did you really kind of develop the the techniques that you use in your music? Now?

00:15:12:01 - 00:15:13:18
Speaker 3
I'm just like, well.

00:15:13:18 - 00:15:18:04
Speaker 2
I'm, I'm 40.

00:15:18:06 - 00:15:21:14
Speaker 3
So, you know.

00:15:21:16 - 00:15:25:07
Speaker 2
Now we're talking what, like.

00:15:25:09 - 00:15:29:24
Speaker 3
What what what what, like.

00:15:30:01 - 00:15:56:23
Speaker 2
Roughly 25 years of trial and error? And and, like, I started out fingerpicking. I didn't I didn't start out with a pick at all. So I think one of the reasons that finger picking is, like, so much my thing is that I started fingerpicking. I didn't start with a pick, I didn't start, I didn't start strumming. I thought strumming.

00:15:57:00 - 00:16:00:20
Speaker 2
When I first started playing guitar, I thought strumming was just a bad sound.

00:16:00:22 - 00:16:01:20
Speaker 3
Right?

00:16:01:22 - 00:16:05:24
Speaker 2
Every time I did it, it made a sound that I didn't like.

00:16:06:01 - 00:16:06:14
Speaker 3
Oh.

00:16:06:16 - 00:16:16:13
Speaker 2
So I actually. And then and then it was reinforced when I would strum with my friends,

00:16:16:15 - 00:16:27:03
Speaker 2
My friend Mark, he was a massive musical snob, and he, he told me that my rhythm was terrible and that when I sat around, it never sounded good. So I was like.

00:16:27:03 - 00:16:27:12
Speaker 3
Well.

00:16:27:13 - 00:16:35:19
Speaker 2
Screw this, I'm just going to finger pick all the time. Everything. As much as possible.

00:16:35:24 - 00:16:38:14
Speaker 3
But.

00:16:38:16 - 00:17:08:00
Speaker 2
It's funny because, you know, I mean, in metal, you're using for everything outside of, And I'm still kind of an amalgam kind of player. Like, I like today, I've, I have, like, today, I actually haven't done any fingerpicking today. They're really only, I've been playing with a pig because I've been playing this jazz stuff that I'm going to try and, like, accompany a friend of mine while she sings.

00:17:08:01 - 00:17:14:12
Speaker 2
But I'm trying to, like, work some really complicated, like, jazz shred and stuff into it.

00:17:15:10 - 00:17:30:02
Speaker 2
And so today, we're only playing the pig, so, I mean, I can, but just like Strat, I didn't start with the pig and strumming with the pickle. It didn't sound good to me for a really long time.

00:17:30:04 - 00:18:01:10
Speaker 2
I've gone through a lot of trial and error. I feel like it. And even now, like I'm sat there and sometimes it will be a thing I'm trying to achieve with my right hand. That was really easy to achieve like 5 or 6 years ago, but for some reason now it's like a little harder and I don't know if I'm just getting old and arthritis is setting in or, or if or if I just my technique was just different.

00:18:01:12 - 00:18:03:01
Speaker 3
Six years ago, five years ago.

00:18:03:01 - 00:18:29:02
Speaker 2
Than it is now or something. But, it's it's an all the time thing. Like trying to get better at music is a lifetime event. It's not. It's it's not like a few years. It's like, for me, for me, it's a lifetime pursuit. I'm going to be like, trying to find ways to get better at all these little elements until I die.

00:18:29:04 - 00:18:45:07
Speaker 1
Like, okay, I was, listening to a separate interview that you did, and I think you said that at one point you were playing for eight hours a day, and you did you in that you were bringing your guitar to school or like that one of your teachers was letting you play in class. Is that true?

00:18:45:09 - 00:18:45:23
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:18:46:00 - 00:18:52:14
Speaker 2
No. My study hall teacher wouldn't make me do so. I would just tell them, like, oh, I did the work already, right?

00:18:52:15 - 00:18:57:20
Speaker 3
Okay. Yeah. I mean, like.

00:18:57:22 - 00:19:09:11
Speaker 2
It was I mean, it wasn't it wasn't good for my schooling or any of my job prospects, but I mean, I it's fine. I, I got to get the year after that, but.

00:19:09:13 - 00:19:10:16
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:19:10:18 - 00:19:20:13
Speaker 2
But yeah, somewhere where my junior year I, yeah, I was, I was playing between 6 and 8 hours a day pretty consistently.

00:19:20:15 - 00:19:24:21
Speaker 1
Were you, is that when you were back, were you living in the States at that point.

00:19:24:23 - 00:19:47:19
Speaker 2
No, no, I don't know. We moved back to the States for the night. So I was 20, 19, 20. So we were we were in Ecuador, in Ecuador for all my schools. So, so that, junior year I was still in Quito, Ecuador, going to, like a missionary kid's school called Alliance Academy.

00:19:47:21 - 00:19:50:16
Speaker 3
Yeah. Okay.

00:19:50:16 - 00:20:00:18
Speaker 1
So I wanted to talk about your album, In Memoriam. Yes. It's been out for almost a year now, and, I know.

00:20:00:20 - 00:20:02:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, know.

00:20:02:15 - 00:20:30:10
Speaker 1
I, I've been listening to and it's really beautiful. I think it seems like it's kind of the album is kind of exploring sort of grief and memory, especially around your grandmother's experience with Alzheimer's. So what was it? What has it felt like for you to put something out there into the world that's kind of so, personal to you and have people connect with it?

00:20:30:12 - 00:21:03:11
Speaker 2
Well, I wish I had, but I don't know, I just I wish I had a I wish I knew how to make my platform bigger. I think I've gotten I've gotten such wonderful responses to it because it, it, you know, it covers things that people deal with, but it it covers it covers things that people deal with. It covers them in a way that I don't make it so much about my specific experience with it, but I think.

00:21:03:13 - 00:21:37:04
Speaker 2
People can relate to it, even if it's even if it's just through, like a pseudo version of something similar or, I've just gotten such wonderful feedback on it from people at shows and from people that ordered the recording. So, I really, I really only own I really only traffics so far in like, really personal. Material in, in my writing.

00:21:37:08 - 00:22:05:12
Speaker 2
So I don't, I don't really know another way to do it. I say that I wrote a song while on tour, about a woman who's a farmer, and that that was like, that was one of the first songs I've written in my entire life that is fully, like, not my personal thing, but I think it comes across as my personal thing.

00:22:05:14 - 00:22:08:22
Speaker 3
But.

00:22:08:24 - 00:22:12:11
Speaker 2
No, I'm like, I like really saying these things.

00:22:12:11 - 00:22:15:16
Speaker 3
Sometimes it does.

00:22:15:18 - 00:22:32:20
Speaker 2
Get difficult to play such heartfelt songs like Every Night because sometimes you you get into this rhythm of kind of reliving the stuff and.

00:22:32:22 - 00:22:36:22
Speaker 2
And there are ways to not do that.

00:22:39:18 - 00:22:40:23
Speaker 3
But. Yeah,

00:22:41:00 - 00:23:07:15
Speaker 2
I like I like releasing, no, I like, I like having something really personal that somebody the people who find it, for the most part, seem to get something very. That they, that they want very much to get out of them. And that and that works for me.

00:23:07:17 - 00:23:11:03
Speaker 3
Because it makes me happy.

00:23:11:05 - 00:23:36:14
Speaker 1
Because I, I, I know some artists they like. You were saying that kind of right from the perspective of a character or, like, I guess kind of imagined stories. And then then there's some who are pretty much all just from their own personal experiences. Where would you say you fall on that spectrum?

00:23:36:16 - 00:23:37:05
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:23:37:08 - 00:24:03:11
Speaker 2
You like I mean, I do have a few songs in my catalog that are very much just from the perspective of a character, but I wouldn't, but I probably wouldn't have written this character in my songs if I didn't, if I wasn't a little bit them in some way, or this character reflects something that like, I wish I could do.

00:24:09:12 - 00:24:40:07
Speaker 2
Sometimes there are things you want. What? You shouldn't do them. So you have a character, and now. And now you can get away with that without actually having to go do something illegal or commit murder or something like that. So. So sometimes that's very useful. You just, like, find a character that has some of your qualities, and then you just make them do this thing that is not actually that would not be good in real life.

00:24:40:07 - 00:24:55:02
Speaker 2
You could do this thing, but through a character and in song you can do it and even have it kind of celebrate this way. But, I'm not condoning I'm not condoning emotional murder either. I'm just I'm just saying.

00:24:55:06 - 00:25:01:13
Speaker 3
But, but.

00:25:01:15 - 00:25:35:15
Speaker 2
But most of my writing is like it goes back and forth between being super, super personal. And then there are these parts, and then I kind of, I play with, but kind of abstract some stuff. It's just it's just fully like abstract. It like, this doesn't really like this expresses a feeling to me, but it it doesn't mean anything super specific to do with an experience that I have.

00:25:35:17 - 00:25:38:08
Speaker 2
For.

00:25:38:10 - 00:25:42:05
Speaker 3
Something like that.

00:25:42:07 - 00:25:48:24
Speaker 2
Because I, I think, I think my, I think my A.D.D. makes it so that.

00:25:49:01 - 00:26:09:18
Speaker 2
Truly, like, writing a song about one concept is almost impossible for me. The way I get through songwriting is allowing myself to put abstract ideas right next to very, very personal ideas, and then finding a way to make them fit.

00:26:10:23 - 00:26:25:15
Speaker 2
Or or putting ideas for, like a character who's not me right next to like, my experience and making them fit. But,

00:26:25:17 - 00:26:28:12
Speaker 3
Because.

00:26:28:14 - 00:26:41:13
Speaker 2
My just the way my is, the way my brain works in general makes it really hard to just do one thing, even just like, just like write a song about this thing. And it's almost like, well.

00:26:41:15 - 00:26:46:06
Speaker 3
I can't write. Maybe it's great.

00:26:46:06 - 00:27:06:06
Speaker 1
I think that's, that's very interesting. I, I was listening to there's this interview with, Chris Cornell where he's talking about when he was writing Black Hole Sun, and he was driving in the car at 4 a.m. and the whole idea for the song just kind of came to him.

00:27:06:08 - 00:27:21:19
Speaker 1
And then, like the lyrical idea and everything. What does your songwriting process look like? Like when you start, do you already kind of have an idea of where the whole song is going to go, or are you figuring it out as you go?

00:27:21:21 - 00:27:24:09
Speaker 3
When?

00:27:24:11 - 00:27:25:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, when when I.

00:27:25:11 - 00:27:27:03
Speaker 3
Try to.

00:27:27:05 - 00:27:29:24
Speaker 2
When I try to decide from the outset.

00:27:29:24 - 00:27:35:04
Speaker 3
Where it's going to go, it I don't get.

00:27:35:06 - 00:27:50:04
Speaker 2
I don't yeah, I don't really get results that I'm really happy with that way I get results that I'm like creatively more satisfied with when I just. But over time.

00:27:50:06 - 00:27:52:23
Speaker 3
But.

00:27:53:00 - 00:27:55:23
Speaker 2
Like kind of just like.

00:27:56:00 - 00:27:56:15
Speaker 3
Move.

00:27:56:15 - 00:27:59:01
Speaker 2
And bubble up into existence.

00:28:00:18 - 00:28:05:22
Speaker 2
Sometimes that takes like two years and sometimes it just takes like a month.

00:28:13:14 - 00:28:15:04
Speaker 3
There's almost an element of.

00:28:15:04 - 00:28:18:09
Speaker 2
Writing some, some songs kind of write themselves.

00:28:18:11 - 00:28:21:00
Speaker 3
So some songs.

00:28:21:02 - 00:28:24:21
Speaker 2
It's like you, ooh.

00:28:24:23 - 00:28:27:19
Speaker 3
Yeah. And,

00:28:27:21 - 00:28:52:17
Speaker 2
Like a young, a young woman who, who's whose work I really like. She, she doesn't have any, she doesn't have any songs like out in the world yet on, like, on streaming or anything. But there's this young songwriter lady in Georgia that, on the air. She said something really interesting about taking a long time to write songs.

00:28:52:17 - 00:28:58:11
Speaker 2
She said, sometimes you haven't experienced the song yet, and.

00:28:58:13 - 00:29:15:01
Speaker 2
And so you have you have to literally, like, experience your way through finishing to a song. I mean, that's what like my song Rosemary and Leaves that's, that that's very much.

00:29:15:03 - 00:29:16:07
Speaker 3
That, that's.

00:29:16:07 - 00:29:17:19
Speaker 1
One of my favorite songs.

00:29:17:21 - 00:29:19:05
Speaker 3
Cool.

00:29:19:07 - 00:29:23:04
Speaker 1
Is that that's how it was with you. Kind of felt like you had to experience it.

00:29:23:06 - 00:29:25:19
Speaker 3
Yeah. That that song may have.

00:29:25:19 - 00:29:40:09
Speaker 2
Taken over two years to write, may have taken less, but I just remember feeling like as I was coming back to that songs. This is kicking my ass. This is taking forever.

00:29:40:11 - 00:29:46:03
Speaker 3
And so, well.

00:29:46:05 - 00:30:01:20
Speaker 1
I want to come back to that song, but so would you say kind of, you know, as far as the songwriting process goes, do you have do you usually start with lyrics or melody or how does that usually look for you?

00:30:01:22 - 00:30:05:18
Speaker 2
Usually it all starts with.

00:30:05:20 - 00:30:14:22
Speaker 2
With, a guitar thing. And then.

00:30:14:24 - 00:30:36:17
Speaker 2
Mean, like melody and lyrics are usually being written simultaneously. Actually, they're all usually written kind of simultaneously, like, I play, I sing stuff and I play and our fine little melodies, and then I try and sing those melodies.

00:30:36:19 - 00:30:44:02
Speaker 2
For me, melodies all exist within your chord structure. So.

00:30:44:04 - 00:31:11:07
Speaker 2
And and just a way of figuring out, is this melody good? A good way of finding out what is this melody is to just play play the melody against your chords. If you can do that, and if it's pleasing while you're not singing it, if it's still a very pleasing melody, just going right against base notes.

00:31:11:09 - 00:31:37:17
Speaker 2
Then it's probably a good melody, right? And that so I write melodies kind of like that is a lot of times I write melodies on guitar and then I then I have to like, find a way to sing this after the fact. As as I'm trying to put lyrics to it is usually how I'm trying to figure out how to sing my song.

00:31:37:19 - 00:31:38:20
Speaker 2
I'm not.

00:31:39:08 - 00:32:05:17
Speaker 2
I'm not very compartmentalized in that way. It's all kind of happening at once. And then sometimes there will be a point where once all, once, like most of the music in the melody, once that stuff is figured out, then I can, like, just focus on finishing lyrics. Usually. Yeah, but in the very beginning, like, it's all kind of happening.

00:32:05:19 - 00:32:22:15
Speaker 1
Okay. I'm always just interested, to hear people's experiences because I, I sometimes I get ideas for songs or like lyric ideas, but then I've never really, truly finished a whole song because I just kind of get in my own way.

00:32:22:16 - 00:32:29:06
Speaker 3
Think, ooh.

00:32:29:08 - 00:32:31:10
Speaker 2
Because you like quality controlling.

00:32:31:10 - 00:32:56:02
Speaker 1
It, or yeah, maybe it's a combination. I think of that. And then, I guess not knowing how to create the melody or if I don't know, I guess not wanting to. It's also, I feel like a balance between wanting to create something that's original, like, I don't, but I don't want to, like, copy something else, if that makes sense.

00:32:56:04 - 00:33:11:23
Speaker 1
Whereas I feel like your ear songs are so unique, and then they also kind of you can go through so many different like journeys. I'm going to key changes within one song.

00:33:12:00 - 00:33:16:11
Speaker 3
Yeah. All that's just like, no, no, like, listen.

00:33:16:11 - 00:33:28:23
Speaker 2
They don't always feel comfortable to write because you have to you have to like, give your permission. Give yourself permission like.

00:33:29:00 - 00:33:51:18
Speaker 2
Key changes. Like they they can, you know, they can be weird or time signature changes. They can be really odd. So you have to like and it can feel very, like when you write like that, there's always there are always growing pains when you when you're.

00:33:51:20 - 00:34:02:16
Speaker 2
Saying like, I'm going to allow myself to write the chorus in 3 or 4, or to have the chorus be in three, four when the whole rest of the song is forced or.

00:34:03:20 - 00:34:27:09
Speaker 2
Or like, I'm going to allow myself to just have this guitar part change time signatures. Every couple measures it. These are things that you end up like, kind of like it's kind of yeah, it's like they feel like jumping off a cliff because like, they they don't feel safe at first.

00:34:27:11 - 00:34:48:02
Speaker 2
What if what if, what if you're just, like, willing to do it. They they can make your songs sound more interesting. Like, and they can take your songs out of, like regular just like regular by the book songwriter land where.

00:34:48:04 - 00:34:49:07
Speaker 3
Like.

00:34:49:09 - 00:35:16:16
Speaker 2
It can be so frustrating to be out at shows where out at open mics or what have you. Just like everybody's writing them for, for everybody's song or slow. Everybody knows the same chords and I think the way you get out of that is you just give yourself permission to do weird stuff.

00:35:16:18 - 00:35:32:17
Speaker 2
And and I'm. Yeah. And I'm, I'm working on that right now. I'm like, in the middle of a song and I'm trying to figure out, is this one where I'm going to give myself permission to do the time signature thing, where I just go.

00:35:32:17 - 00:35:36:24
Speaker 3
Back and forth or.

00:35:37:01 - 00:36:02:22
Speaker 2
And like, am I going to allow myself to have this really crunchy chord ring out? Or like, this court has, it has a tritone interval in a minor second interval right on top of each other. And those are the two, like in our Western music, those are the two most dissonant intervals. And so just in this one chord, those intervals are just really loud and, and and I love it.

00:36:02:24 - 00:36:13:05
Speaker 2
But I also go like, oh my, my mother's always telling me that those kinds of chords are not for popular consumption.

00:36:13:07 - 00:36:31:02
Speaker 2
And so and then so there's like, mom's on my shoulder going like, you know, you shouldn't do that. You'll never have a career. And then and then I'm on like, somebody that I am on my shoulders is going like, well.

00:36:31:04 - 00:36:34:20
Speaker 2
Probably never going to have a career anyway. So just do whatever I want.

00:36:34:22 - 00:36:39:13
Speaker 3
I don't know. Okay.

00:36:39:15 - 00:36:58:02
Speaker 1
How much of when you're writing music, how much of it is are you thinking about music theory or like, does that inform your songwriting, or are you kind of just doing what feels and sounds good to you?

00:36:58:04 - 00:37:02:13
Speaker 3
Well.

00:37:02:15 - 00:37:04:18
Speaker 3
Let's. That has.

00:37:04:18 - 00:37:10:22
Speaker 2
A lot to do with my relationship with theory and what my relationship with theory is, such that I know.

00:37:10:22 - 00:37:12:22
Speaker 3
Some I.

00:37:12:24 - 00:37:27:12
Speaker 2
I definitely know basics, but there are even some basics that I don't know. I don't feel like I know like enough of, so like the guys that I play with, they like making.

00:37:27:14 - 00:37:53:07
Speaker 2
Like the guys I play with. And in my trio, they they can, they can talk theory from like from here Sunday and six weeks after that, like, but they just know so much theory so they can, they can do my songs and tell me what's going on in them. The things that I don't know, like, I use this scale at the end of my song Pony Express.

00:37:53:13 - 00:37:58:14
Speaker 2
Apparently that apparently the thing I'm doing is and like, my keyboard player is.

00:37:58:14 - 00:38:01:09
Speaker 3
Like, oh, this is,

00:38:01:11 - 00:38:09:18
Speaker 2
Your song is dandy here, but the scale you're using is G double harmonic major.

00:38:09:20 - 00:38:15:11
Speaker 2
And and I said, well, I've sort of heard of that.

00:38:15:13 - 00:38:16:14
Speaker 3
Like, I mean.

00:38:16:16 - 00:38:30:20
Speaker 2
I studied jazz, but but I've never just been in love with just knowing theory. I've always wanted to know theory in such a way that it had a purpose. And.

00:38:30:22 - 00:38:37:04
Speaker 2
So there's some of both. Sometimes if I'm stuck and I can't figure out, like.

00:38:37:06 - 00:38:46:13
Speaker 2
Okay, I'm, I'm kind of in this key or I'm in, like, the relative minor of this key. What?

00:38:46:15 - 00:38:56:09
Speaker 2
What what what, like color chords are at my disposal here. If I'm in this.

00:38:56:11 - 00:39:24:12
Speaker 2
If I'm in this key. Like what? What diminished chords? What have diminished chords? What? Like, I know I want to go kind of. I want to go somewhere colorful. What colorful chords are like here. But so but even then, I have to. Sometimes I have to think really hard, or I have to like, do little equations or I hate math.

00:39:27:06 - 00:39:30:10
Speaker 2
I hate numbers, really?

00:39:30:12 - 00:39:35:14
Speaker 3
I hate them, but.

00:39:35:16 - 00:39:57:16
Speaker 1
Yeah, I, I played clarinet for seven years, and I learned all the scales and memorize them and everything, and I was able to be good at the instrument, but music theory was always something that just kind of went over my head and my, And I'm told that it that it's helpful for a guitar, but I don't I mean, I guess it's not necessary in order to, to be good.

00:39:57:22 - 00:40:00:05
Speaker 3
It's.

00:40:00:07 - 00:40:06:13
Speaker 2
Right. I mean, the guitar might really be one of the instruments where.

00:40:06:15 - 00:40:19:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. Where you can know, like a true, like, minimum of theory and definitely be a songwriter.

00:40:19:10 - 00:40:20:14
Speaker 3
I, I.

00:40:20:16 - 00:40:23:00
Speaker 1
I was hard because I had.

00:40:23:02 - 00:40:26:01
Speaker 2
Also I'm trying to make this roof I think like.

00:40:26:03 - 00:40:29:24
Speaker 3
I don't through.

00:40:30:01 - 00:40:43:17
Speaker 2
Accidentally like revealing my thoughts on, like, the land of songwriters and I don't have like a super high opinion of like the whole like.

00:40:43:19 - 00:40:52:07
Speaker 3
I don't know, so like when I'm a songwriter, it's like, well.

00:40:52:09 - 00:41:08:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I wish there were I was like, there were more folks out there, just just like trying to try things. Not just not just like no four chords and. Right. And then write everything they're going to write for the rest of their lives with these four chords.

00:41:08:03 - 00:41:08:21
Speaker 3
Like.

00:41:08:23 - 00:41:31:23
Speaker 2
It's so and I love some of it. Like I'm a big John Prine fan. I'm a really big Bob Dylan fan. I mean, it's like those, but those are writers. It's like, who's not a big fan of those people. But in in our in row or in our genre. But yeah, I just wish more writers were just willing to take chances and go like your direction.

00:41:32:00 - 00:41:36:00
Speaker 3
That that's all perfect.

00:41:36:02 - 00:41:46:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. I wanted to come back to your song Rosemary and Thieves because I was one of my favorite songs from your album. Specifically, there's one line that really sticks out to me,

00:41:46:18 - 00:41:56:11
Speaker 1
where you say, it seems like every time I open up my mouth, words like arrow start flying out aimed at my friends, and now I have less of them.

00:41:56:13 - 00:42:19:24
Speaker 1
And for one, I love the imagery of that line. And then I also just feel like it's such an honest description to me of being sort of like self-destructive. And I don't know, I kind of really relate to that for some reason. But can you tell me about where that lyric came from and like, what it represents for you?

00:42:20:01 - 00:42:22:13
Speaker 3
Yeah, I've been there for the I'm.

00:42:22:13 - 00:42:44:00
Speaker 2
Not in an interview yet. I have not delved into what exactly that came from that really came from, it's, an experience that I still don't actually understand. I don't really understand what happened there, but I.

00:42:44:02 - 00:42:56:24
Speaker 2
I was going, have you had somebody say this on your podcast yet? I was going to go squirrel hunting with a friend of mine.

00:42:57:01 - 00:42:58:05
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:42:58:07 - 00:43:07:22
Speaker 2
I was going to go squirrel hunting with my friend. And he lives in a part of East Texas, just like 4 or 5 hours away from me. Or.

00:43:07:24 - 00:43:08:04
Speaker 3
Maybe.

00:43:08:04 - 00:43:24:13
Speaker 2
It's not that long. It was like 2 or 3, but it's a few hours away from me. We were going to go squirrel hunting, like each day for a few days, and when I got there and we were hanging out with his wife and.

00:43:24:15 - 00:43:26:16
Speaker 3
I and,

00:43:26:18 - 00:43:52:15
Speaker 2
Okay. And it bears some. It's worth saying that like this, this guy that I was going to go squirrel hunting with, we have we have been on tour together once where talking really tight quarters. We were like we camped out for like two weeks together to make to make touring really affordable. We camped in a tent together.

00:43:52:17 - 00:44:15:02
Speaker 2
For two weeks on tour, we we'd been hunting, hunting together a bunch of times. We played. We played, we we played well over 100 shows together in, in our like five years of being really close friends. Was at the time I felt like this person was my best friend.

00:44:15:04 - 00:44:43:21
Speaker 2
And I went over to his house. We were going to school hunt. We were hanging out with his wife. She said something. About what? What dessert was going to be the following day for dinner or after dinner and I don't know what I said, but I said something that caused her to be so upset that the next day, they didn't they didn't come out of their room for, like, 2.5 hours.

00:44:43:21 - 00:44:50:14
Speaker 2
got up really late and took the squirrel dog out. And then when he brought the squirrel dog back,

00:44:50:14 - 00:44:52:03
Speaker 2
my friend said.

00:44:54:20 - 00:45:36:06
Speaker 2
Good. I love I love you, buddy, but you need a lot of therapy and you need to work on understanding how the words you say affect other people. And, I'm not going to explain any more than that, but you have to leave. So, you know, I driven a few hours to spend a few days with my best friend, and then I don't know what I said, but I said something drove his wife to be so upset that, that she made him.

00:45:36:08 - 00:45:41:17
Speaker 3
Kick me out of the house. So,

00:45:41:19 - 00:46:02:08
Speaker 1
Oh. Well, I, I can appreciate, though, that that that you're. That's one of the things that I like about your song. Is it just feels like they're honest. So I, I, I can appreciate that. So I feel like sometimes it's hard to find these days.

00:46:04:00 - 00:46:13:11
Speaker 1
Did any song on the album on your album Memoriam surprise you and how it turned out, either musically or emotionally?

00:46:18:21 - 00:46:20:05
Speaker 3
Oh, that's,

00:46:20:07 - 00:46:22:22
Speaker 2
Wow, that's a good question.

00:46:22:22 - 00:46:26:11
Speaker 3
I so.

00:46:26:13 - 00:46:51:10
Speaker 2
Man, one of them is, like, way underwhelming in a way that there's that's upsetting. Like, I feel there's might be the last track or possible. The waiting place is one that like, I really love writing or, I don't know, writing. It was hard, but like, writing it was a journey. And and I felt like satisfied with having written it.

00:46:51:12 - 00:47:18:24
Speaker 2
And I've gotten really good responses playing live. Sometimes I don't I don't play it near as much as I play like Rosemary and Pony Express, and I play tonight will be fine, and pretty much every show I play catastrophic proportions a lot live. But like, there's a bunch In Memoriam right now that I play every time I play live, the waiting place has it.

00:47:19:01 - 00:47:28:22
Speaker 2
It's like I played it on one of my tours with David Ramirez last year, but not the not the next one. For me, I've.

00:47:28:22 - 00:47:29:06
Speaker 3
Gotten.

00:47:29:11 - 00:47:53:09
Speaker 2
Like, live. I've gotten some really great feedback on on the waiting place, but like the recording, not so much. And I just, I thought it would. I thought it would. I don't know if the recording would be received better, but I also, you know, I recorded like I was part of the recording, so I know, I know what went I know what went weird with recording it.

00:47:53:11 - 00:48:00:06
Speaker 2
So that makes it so it it's just it doesn't present the way I wanted to. I think.

00:48:01:12 - 00:48:09:17
Speaker 2
In the opposite direction.

00:48:09:19 - 00:48:25:06
Speaker 2
I'm a little surprised with just how much I like listening to Rosemary and these, like, I just love listening to it. I don't care that.

00:48:25:08 - 00:48:40:05
Speaker 2
The production is, like, pretty rocking at parts. I, I, I really like that about it.

00:48:40:07 - 00:48:53:05
Speaker 2
I, I'm, I'm always surprised with feedback from, from listeners at shows that are like, well, like I just wish your record sounded more like you sound live by yourself.

00:48:53:07 - 00:48:55:10
Speaker 3
Yeah. I don't know, like.

00:48:55:12 - 00:48:59:00
Speaker 2
I'm trying to find ways to make that more interesting.

00:48:59:00 - 00:49:00:14
Speaker 3
To me, but just.

00:49:00:16 - 00:49:05:15
Speaker 2
Making stuff that is.

00:49:05:17 - 00:49:19:04
Speaker 2
That is so much like just playing by yourself like that doesn't really interest me right now, but I'm trying to find ways of making, like, lo fi, just me and my guitar.

00:49:20:11 - 00:49:39:19
Speaker 2
I'm actually I'm going down to Austin next month to record with a friend of mine, and we're going to do like, pretty stripped down, like live to tape, like in his house. And we're going to try and find some ways to make like a pretty stripped down things. Still satisfying to me.

00:49:39:21 - 00:49:42:05
Speaker 3
But it's like one of the fun things.

00:49:42:05 - 00:49:45:11
Speaker 2
About making records, like getting your friends involved and.

00:49:45:13 - 00:49:48:09
Speaker 3
Like just seeing the possibilities.

00:49:48:09 - 00:50:08:03
Speaker 2
And, and for me, like Rosemary at these is like my, my like apex of like figuring out what the possibilities. It's just I don't know, I feel like the production on that song is just so entertaining for me. So when, when people express disappointment or when I ask what they think of the recording, they say something like, I.

00:50:08:04 - 00:50:13:21
Speaker 3
Like you love so much, or.

00:50:13:23 - 00:50:20:03
Speaker 2
That was there was my attempt at impersonating somebody that said that to me in Georgia, which didn't sound like that at all.

00:50:20:07 - 00:50:25:23
Speaker 3
But,

00:50:26:00 - 00:50:28:16
Speaker 3
So,

00:50:28:18 - 00:50:37:03
Speaker 3
Oh,

00:50:37:05 - 00:50:37:21
Speaker 3
Dead on New.

00:50:37:21 - 00:50:53:04
Speaker 2
Year's Day because they don't. New Year's Day is such like, like, all by itself recording. Like, it's mostly just me. Like, it comes across like me singing and playing into a mic.

00:50:53:06 - 00:51:01:24
Speaker 2
So I was surprised at how much I like that song, because it's really just me. But. And.

00:51:14:05 - 00:51:14:23
Speaker 3
But I guess, and.

00:51:14:23 - 00:51:16:13
Speaker 2
Like, the emotional, like.

00:51:16:15 - 00:51:17:24
Speaker 3
For some reason.

00:51:18:01 - 00:51:29:06
Speaker 2
Like, I have no idea what catastrophic proportions is really about. Like, most of that song is not really like about anything to me, but I really like playing it.

00:51:29:08 - 00:51:30:17
Speaker 1
Interesting.

00:51:30:19 - 00:51:33:16
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think.

00:51:33:18 - 00:51:55:07
Speaker 1
What do you hope people take away from Memoriam after listening all the way through?

00:51:55:09 - 00:51:59:00
Speaker 3
Is that.

00:51:59:02 - 00:52:00:03
Speaker 3
One of the things.

00:52:00:03 - 00:52:11:11
Speaker 2
That keeps me going in life is that after experiencing things that are unpleasant, you can see.

00:52:11:13 - 00:52:12:24
Speaker 3
You can see things.

00:52:12:24 - 00:52:20:06
Speaker 2
In that unpleasant thing that you went through that are now beautiful.

00:52:20:08 - 00:52:24:23
Speaker 2
Like like these memories that have watching my grandmother pick up.

00:52:24:23 - 00:52:25:11
Speaker 3
Like.

00:52:25:13 - 00:52:45:16
Speaker 2
Dead sticks and shrubbery, bring them in the house and like. And dead leaves and sticks and little twigs and, cicada shells. And she would put them in little soy sauce bowls full of water, trying to bring them back to life. And.

00:52:51:07 - 00:52:55:15
Speaker 2
You know, that was an incredibly, like, weird period of my life.

00:52:55:15 - 00:52:57:16
Speaker 3
But,

00:52:57:18 - 00:53:02:06
Speaker 2
And I did enjoy it while she was doing all that. I was frustrated.

00:53:02:10 - 00:53:02:19
Speaker 3
When.

00:53:02:19 - 00:53:04:07
Speaker 2
She was doing.

00:53:05:12 - 00:53:23:22
Speaker 2
But having it as a memory is, like, really beautiful to me. But, yeah, I guess I would hope that people.

00:53:23:24 - 00:53:38:18
Speaker 2
See something useful in that there's always something useful to the to be gained from, like, being in some kind of pain or to go through something strange.

00:53:38:20 - 00:54:07:01
Speaker 2
There's always something to get out of it, and it doesn't always have to be negative. You can still like, find like there are, you know, just like there are weird ways making one's songs more interesting. There are weird ways of like finding the beauty in really messed up situations or times in your life you thought were just going to be a transition period, or.

00:54:07:03 - 00:54:14:21
Speaker 3
I don't know, but yeah.

00:54:14:23 - 00:54:35:11
Speaker 1
I appreciate that. I have literally I have a whole list of questions. I feel like I could just, take hours more of your time, but I'll try to wrap it up. So, Okay. Well, actually, I guess we're, probably running out of time.

00:54:35:13 - 00:54:36:17
Speaker 3
Oh, no, this is the.

00:54:36:17 - 00:54:39:08
Speaker 2
Only let the only let you do it. Well, no.

00:54:39:09 - 00:54:45:03
Speaker 1
I think it lets you. I can go longer, but I don't want to take up, like, more of your time.

00:54:45:05 - 00:54:46:13
Speaker 3
No. Go ahead.

00:54:46:15 - 00:54:54:11
Speaker 1
Oh, okay. So. Okay, let me regroup.

00:54:54:13 - 00:54:58:08
Speaker 1
Well, how much time do you,

00:54:58:10 - 00:55:06:23
Speaker 3
Well, what was it? I don't know, I don't have a I don't have a timer. Let's see, I don't know. Do you like.

00:55:07:00 - 00:55:07:12
Speaker 2
2 or 3.

00:55:07:12 - 00:55:08:23
Speaker 3
More? Okay.

00:55:09:00 - 00:55:10:19
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:55:10:21 - 00:55:16:04
Speaker 2
Or four. Did you want to do four or.

00:55:16:06 - 00:55:22:06
Speaker 1
Okay. Let's see.

00:55:22:08 - 00:55:32:08
Speaker 1
Would you say that your, How how has your approach to writing changed since your earlier albums?

00:55:36:16 - 00:55:37:11
Speaker 3
Well.

00:55:37:13 - 00:55:58:16
Speaker 2
The way it's the same is that it's always been to, it's always been true that my lyrics are kind of like a little bit abstract and a lot personal and a little bit character driven and then more personal. But.

00:56:00:05 - 00:56:33:13
Speaker 2
The way weight changes, just like, Well. Oh, yeah, I mean, I took, like, guitar lessons and theory lessons again. Like, I, I kind of refreshed on my guitar lessons in three lessons, 2 or 3 years ago. And that that had an impact on, things I'm willing to do in, on the guitar as a songwriter that, that, that kind of gave me permission to do more stuff.

00:56:33:19 - 00:56:35:19
Speaker 3
I feel like, yeah.

00:56:35:21 - 00:56:44:04
Speaker 1
I, another song of yours. I really like that it's not On Memoriam, but your song, These Modern Times, I feel like.

00:56:44:06 - 00:56:50:00
Speaker 3
I'm playing that. That is, man. Like, I like that.

00:56:50:00 - 00:56:52:22
Speaker 2
Song too, but I never play it. Like.

00:56:52:24 - 00:56:56:08
Speaker 1
Really? Why not?

00:57:02:00 - 00:57:05:02
Speaker 2
For some reason, the lyrics are hard to remember.

00:57:05:04 - 00:57:06:07
Speaker 3
So I.

00:57:06:07 - 00:57:14:23
Speaker 2
Got really. I rewrote one of the verses a few times, and that made it so hard to get.

00:57:15:00 - 00:57:34:07
Speaker 2
What I chose to be the verse later, the second verse, I rewrote it like four times, and that made it so hard to memorize the song. And I just don't, I, I just don't bother memorizing this, all right? I messed that song up at my album release for that. For that album.

00:57:34:09 - 00:57:36:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, but,

00:57:36:13 - 00:57:51:04
Speaker 1
Well, I'm a fan of the song, and I feel like it sort of perfectly captures what it feels like, at least for me to be alive. Right now. It's kind of the tension between being, connected and disconnected.

00:57:51:04 - 00:57:51:16
Speaker 3
Having.

00:57:51:22 - 00:57:54:12
Speaker 2
Having to be technology driven and.

00:57:54:14 - 00:58:13:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. So how do you kind of navigate the, the push and pull between technology and creativity?

00:58:13:21 - 00:58:39:03
Speaker 2
And there's this writer. His first name is escaping me, but his last name is DeWitt. He has this really wonderful, like, modern Western novel called, this the Sisters brothers, they're the characters. Their last. Their last name is sisters.

00:58:39:05 - 00:58:40:10
Speaker 3
I read,

00:58:40:12 - 00:59:04:23
Speaker 2
I listened to an interview with him where he was talking about. He said that in order to write like he is, like his wife has to, like, take his computer away, like an awful Wi-Fi or like, take his phone, like in order for him to write, he has to, like, get his wife involved and ask her to, like, take away all of his technology.

00:59:04:23 - 00:59:08:15
Speaker 2
So he. Right.

00:59:08:17 - 00:59:12:24
Speaker 3
So I, I seem to do okay with, like.

00:59:13:01 - 00:59:14:01
Speaker 2
Writing guitar.

00:59:14:01 - 00:59:19:12
Speaker 3
Parts, like, while I'm watching TV or.

00:59:19:14 - 00:59:29:03
Speaker 2
Especially I'm practicing. It's very easy to do while watching TV. You can, like, practice all manner of things our entire while watching, but.

00:59:29:05 - 00:59:34:02
Speaker 3
But I don't. Oddly enough, I've.

00:59:34:02 - 01:00:09:01
Speaker 2
Managed to write right lyrics while watching movies and have them not be just like pulled from the movie. But still have them be like my my thoughts or something. No. But I find it really hard. I find it really frustrating trying to like, have a phone and then go like, okay, I'm going to, I don't know if it's having an impact on my writing yet, but it's having an impact on this, the way I feel about being alive.

01:00:09:03 - 01:00:35:18
Speaker 2
Every, every night for since I've been back from tour, almost every night between nine and between 9 and 10, I plug my phone in in a room that is not my bedroom, and I turn my phone off and I don't. And I don't turn on my phone until I avoid, until I've had coffee and like, been out in the yard for a few minutes.

01:00:35:20 - 01:00:39:19
Speaker 3
Like.

01:00:39:21 - 01:00:55:01
Speaker 2
Oh. I find it difficult. I, I, I am very much like, I am addicted. It's just like being entertained by things on YouTube or watching guitar lessons on YouTube and watching guitar lessons is not writing song.

01:00:55:07 - 01:00:57:03
Speaker 3
Like.

01:00:57:05 - 01:01:18:24
Speaker 2
Like learning. Learning stuff from the internet is great, but learning stuff from the internet is not writing songs and writing songs like for me, it takes like making the space feel like my space, making like making my brain feel like, okay, like we have permission to just to just mess things up.

01:01:19:01 - 01:01:22:01
Speaker 3
Like.

01:01:22:03 - 01:01:48:13
Speaker 2
Just like how? Because. Right. Because like, really writing should be called like play. Because like, it doesn't it doesn't happen if you're if you were, like, so worried about where it's all headed and what are the results. It it it happens best when like when you're just like unencumbered by rules and regulations and expectations.

01:01:48:13 - 01:01:50:17
Speaker 3
And I'm like, what are the.

01:01:50:17 - 01:02:02:06
Speaker 2
Things that, like, ruin adult life? Is that like there are countless rules and regulations and expectations are just thrust on you at all times. That's what sucks about being an adult.

01:02:02:08 - 01:02:04:24
Speaker 3
Like everything that makes.

01:02:04:24 - 01:02:17:18
Speaker 2
You better at writing, or all the things that you like about child. Like no time limits, didn't really matter what you did.

01:02:17:20 - 01:02:23:12
Speaker 2
Like and like not washing dishes and not doing laundry is awesome.

01:02:23:14 - 01:02:32:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. Or not worrying about being judged. Like not worrying about what people will think. I feel like as a kid, you don't really deal with that well.

01:02:32:11 - 01:02:38:09
Speaker 2
And like, I don't know, like that has nothing to do with the internet, but so.

01:02:38:11 - 01:02:42:10
Speaker 3
But but but I haven't. But yeah, your.

01:02:42:10 - 01:02:53:23
Speaker 2
Phone will remind you that, like, somebody is expecting you to do something or you feel like it. Just like expectations live on my follow. Like email.

01:02:54:00 - 01:02:55:12
Speaker 3
Or my expectations.

01:02:55:12 - 01:03:02:05
Speaker 2
And we're on my phone, like, who are like, who am I just, like, so upset that I haven't heard from today or something or what?

01:03:02:07 - 01:03:06:21
Speaker 3
Like all that stuff is just in my head and.

01:03:06:23 - 01:03:11:02
Speaker 2
None of that stuff is good for creativity.

01:03:11:04 - 01:03:14:11
Speaker 3
Like.

01:03:14:13 - 01:03:16:10
Speaker 3
Okay.

01:03:16:12 - 01:03:46:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, I would agree, I would agree. I sent that song to my brother because I was talking to him. I think we were just talking about how addicting social media is and just kind of doomscrolling. And I think I read somewhere that the average person will spend ten, like cumulative, cumulative cumulatively ten years of their lives just on their devices, which is kind of crazy.

01:03:46:15 - 01:03:54:13
Speaker 3
Yeah. Which I mean, if you add on top of that, like.

01:03:54:15 - 01:03:58:04
Speaker 2
Dude, like.

01:03:58:06 - 01:04:01:23
Speaker 2
I've never had a job that had anything to do with movies.

01:04:02:00 - 01:04:05:23
Speaker 3
I.

01:04:06:00 - 01:04:42:21
Speaker 2
But I but but I'm like so knowledgeable about movies that when I talk to people that work in the movie industry, they go, wow, you're like, you're a real cinephile. I'm just saying, it's just that, like, I've spent so much time watching movies that I've seen. I've seen like the types of movies and like the number of movies that you would normally associate with a person that has a job in the film industry somehow, like, that's how much time I've wasted, possibly.

01:04:42:21 - 01:05:02:09
Speaker 2
I mean, I guess film film was like great art. It can be. But like, I'm so in the movies that when I talk, I, I had a great conversation with a guy that works for the Criterion Collection and just talking about movies. And he was like, man, you're like, you know, a lot.

01:05:02:11 - 01:05:03:12
Speaker 2
Like, well, I sure, I.

01:05:03:12 - 01:05:06:05
Speaker 3
Sure do like him.

01:05:06:07 - 01:05:23:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, that's art. I feel like that's, you know, that's better than, you know, being on social media at least in my opinion. Is there a song out there that you just really love or that inspires you that you wish you had written?

01:05:23:22 - 01:05:33:03
Speaker 2
Oh man, right now I wish I had written like three Jeff Buckley songs.

01:05:33:05 - 01:05:39:08
Speaker 2
I wish I had written Mojo Pen. I wish had written my wine. One.

01:05:42:19 - 01:05:54:16
Speaker 2
I wish I written Jeff Buckley's dream brother. That's an incredible, I wish I'd written. Everything happens to Me by Chet Baker. I wish I had written. Ooh. This is oh.

01:05:54:16 - 01:05:58:07
Speaker 3
This is this is this this is this is.

01:05:58:09 - 01:06:08:05
Speaker 2
This is where it's at. This dang album is so good. It's called it's called Mercury Fall. And it's it's.

01:06:08:05 - 01:06:09:09
Speaker 3
Fantastic.

01:06:09:11 - 01:06:20:22
Speaker 2
There's a song on here. There's a song by sting called All four Seasons.

01:06:20:24 - 01:06:23:08
Speaker 2
I wish I read you that song.

01:06:23:10 - 01:06:25:20
Speaker 1
Okay. I'll have to check that out here.

01:06:25:22 - 01:06:27:17
Speaker 2
There probably. I'm going to.

01:06:27:17 - 01:06:35:21
Speaker 3
Look. Ooh. No. Yes. Okay.

01:06:35:23 - 01:06:47:04
Speaker 2
There's there's this highly underrated Canadian rock band called Big Wreck.

01:06:47:06 - 01:06:56:01
Speaker 2
And, they have a song. It's it's literally just called that song.

01:06:56:03 - 01:07:00:23
Speaker 3
And I wish I had written that song.

01:07:01:00 - 01:07:07:13
Speaker 2
I man. Ooh. Okay. There's a jazz tune written by Matt Dennis.

01:07:09:01 - 01:07:18:08
Speaker 2
Like Ella Fitzgerald is a badass version of it. Chip maker does a best version of it is called Angel eyes, and that's like.

01:07:18:10 - 01:07:24:19
Speaker 2
Another. But it would be in my pick of like, it's kind of a perfect song.

01:07:24:21 - 01:07:26:24
Speaker 1
Okay, cool. Check those out.

01:07:27:01 - 01:07:28:19
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01:07:28:21 - 01:07:36:15
Speaker 2
What other what else do I think? It's a perfect song. That it's just like nobody that I feel like nobody knows about. Ooh.

01:07:36:17 - 01:07:41:08
Speaker 3
Anything here. Oh, no. No, there's.

01:07:41:08 - 01:07:43:00
Speaker 2
Nothing on this album that makes me feel that.

01:07:43:00 - 01:07:50:00
Speaker 3
Way. Oh. But.

01:07:50:02 - 01:07:55:16
Speaker 2
I feel like I should be able to find one more just in my head.

01:07:55:18 - 01:08:07:18
Speaker 3
Oh. Anything that holds holy.

01:08:07:20 - 01:08:14:01
Speaker 2
Just for just for a really good laugh. Everybody should go listen to dude. Looks Like a Lady by Aerosmith.

01:08:14:03 - 01:08:38:15
Speaker 1
Okay, I'll do that after this. Okay, let's try to couple other questions really quickly. So I, not to turn this into a self-help episode, but I went to I performed, my first open mic a couple months ago because I wanted to try and I just wanted to prove to myself that I could sing and play guitar in front of people.

01:08:38:20 - 01:08:52:16
Speaker 1
And I felt like I kind of blacked out, honestly, during I was I was so nervous. Do you get nervous when you're performing in front of people, and if so, how do you cope with that?

01:08:52:18 - 01:08:55:01
Speaker 3
The the main thing that worries me.

01:08:55:03 - 01:09:08:18
Speaker 2
Or that makes me nervous, is whether or not people are going to show up. That's the main thing that I get nervous about right?

01:09:11:23 - 01:09:31:24
Speaker 2
But I, I know what you were talking about, though. Eyes. I started out at open mics and I didn't start doing open mics in my teens or anything. I started doing open lights in my early in my 20s. And I did find that nerve wracking for a long time. And that's what that's what. Open mics are so good for.

01:09:31:24 - 01:09:33:09
Speaker 2
It is that you can.

01:09:33:09 - 01:09:35:24
Speaker 3
Do hundreds of them.

01:09:36:01 - 01:10:00:20
Speaker 2
Like in most towns there are, or in most like big metropolitan areas, like in the Dallas Fort Worth Denton area, where at least when I was that age, there were enough open mics that you could do open mics like four nights a week. There was it. There was a Monday open, like in downtown Dallas. There was a Tuesday open mic in Uptown Dallas.

01:10:00:20 - 01:10:26:01
Speaker 2
There was like a a Saturday night open, like in Arlington, Texas. There there was like a Sunday, like open mic in Denton, you know, just you could you could get more, you could get reps in, like the only way you get past the nerves is just to get reps. You just got to get on stage as much as possible.

01:10:26:03 - 01:10:39:03
Speaker 2
And like, I have this, but actually it's, it's a person from Georgia that I mentioned earlier that said, that thing about you haven't sometimes you haven't experienced the song yet.

01:10:39:05 - 01:10:39:21
Speaker 3
Well, she.

01:10:39:21 - 01:11:17:12
Speaker 2
She's very new at it. She's very new at getting on stage and she was talking about shaking on like she feels like she's shaking the whole time. She's playing guitar and she's singing, which is shaking the whole time. And like the only way you get through that stuff is you just get on stage a lot. And so, I was very nervous at my first few open mics, but then but but getting complimented was like, that was dangerous.

01:11:17:14 - 01:11:19:06
Speaker 2
When I got compliments.

01:11:19:08 - 01:11:23:21
Speaker 3
When, when,

01:11:23:23 - 01:11:32:22
Speaker 2
When like, then I was like, craving that feedback. So then.

01:11:32:24 - 01:11:34:02
Speaker 3
So.

01:11:34:04 - 01:11:47:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. So then I was. And then I just wanted to do open mics all the time. I just wanted more and more feedback. I wanted I wanted to be on stage as much as you possible. I wanted to and then.

01:11:48:00 - 01:11:55:18
Speaker 2
Like, there's just there's just so much to learn, right? It's like.

01:11:55:20 - 01:12:20:22
Speaker 2
Like it's only I'm 40 and I start, I think I started doing open whites when I open when I was 22 or 23. And only now do I think, like I've found an amount of talking in between songs that make sense for me. Like, I know some people who they talk a lot in between every single song, but that's not for me.

01:12:20:24 - 01:12:26:02
Speaker 2
But I went through a phase when I was like 26, where it's like, I got a few.

01:12:26:02 - 01:12:28:10
Speaker 3
Laughs.

01:12:28:11 - 01:12:29:01
Speaker 2
And then I.

01:12:29:01 - 01:12:30:17
Speaker 3
Thought like, oh, I'm like.

01:12:30:17 - 01:12:31:10
Speaker 2
Really funny.

01:12:31:10 - 01:12:33:03
Speaker 3
I should just talk, so I.

01:12:33:03 - 01:12:52:00
Speaker 2
Should just talk this much in between songs. And then my friend Martha was like, you're not that funny. You should. You should talk less in between songs. But like, you've gotten a little bit, like fully yourself here. And the talking is getting too much and.

01:12:52:02 - 01:12:57:11
Speaker 2
And thank God for Martha, because because I do not.

01:12:58:09 - 01:13:04:21
Speaker 2
I don't think so. Songwriting is not about talking between song. It's about song.

01:13:04:23 - 01:13:06:03
Speaker 3
But point in time.

01:13:06:07 - 01:13:15:09
Speaker 2
My concerts should be about playing songs. Okay. This between. Yeah. I don't know if you can see this whole shirt.

01:13:15:09 - 01:13:16:13
Speaker 3
But.

01:13:16:15 - 01:13:37:09
Speaker 2
I saw a metal band on Saturday night called Between the Buried and Me Live. It was fantastic. They waste no time talking in between songs like, hey, they're like, you can't even tell. Sometimes you can't even tell that they have switched songs. They are so quick.

01:13:37:11 - 01:13:45:17
Speaker 3
Like,

01:13:45:19 - 01:13:53:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I think that, like, you'll go through a thing where it's like you'll get past the nerves and then you'll crave all the positive feedback that you've been.

01:13:53:11 - 01:13:54:10
Speaker 3
Getting and.

01:13:54:10 - 01:14:16:23
Speaker 2
That. And then that leads to just being overconfident. And then and then so so you go a few years where you're like, way over confident. You're like, kind of fool yourself on stage. You're just like eating it up, all the positive feedback and then and then and then there's like maturity. And I think with maturity you realize that like.

01:14:17:00 - 01:14:23:10
Speaker 2
People didn't come here to hear you talk about your songs. They came here to hear you play songs.

01:14:23:12 - 01:14:25:17
Speaker 3
We play songs we don't talk about.

01:14:25:19 - 01:14:31:05
Speaker 2
Like this, like podcasts exist so we can talk about whatever we want.

01:14:31:07 - 01:14:33:01
Speaker 3
The stage exists.

01:14:33:03 - 01:14:47:06
Speaker 2
So you can do something that may somehow, in some way be entertaining. And like, if you're not incredibly funny, you should never talk for more than.

01:14:47:08 - 01:15:03:19
Speaker 2
A minute in between songs if you're not and if you're not very, very funny. Like if, if you're just preaching about like self-love and outward love for, for like 7.5 minutes in between songs, that needs to stop.

01:15:03:21 - 01:15:04:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's too much.

01:15:04:20 - 01:15:08:21
Speaker 2
I, I saw somebody do that, and it needs to stop.

01:15:08:23 - 01:15:09:20
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01:15:09:22 - 01:15:31:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, I, I didn't even think about that. When I went to this open mic night. I was like, okay, I'm just going to walk up, do this one song and then leave and then and then it was kind of mostly I was kind of an older crowd and they're like, do another song. So then I did one More up and then afterwards this guy that went on next, he said that I made him cry and I was like, wow.

01:15:31:12 - 01:15:49:11
Speaker 1
I was like, I guess that's a good thing. But then. And then I went home. And then I realized the next day that this one man was Facebook Live streaming the whole performance, and he was doing it for everybody. But I was kind of I was like, you guys all knew it was my first open mic night. Like, I didn't even think that anybody would be recording it.

01:15:49:13 - 01:15:58:16
Speaker 1
So I was a little mortified. But you know, who cares? It was like I proved to myself that I can do it, so hopefully I will do it again.

01:15:58:18 - 01:16:00:19
Speaker 3
Oh, congratulations. Yeah.

01:16:00:21 - 01:16:10:23
Speaker 1
Thank you. So, okay, I guess to wrap it up,

01:16:11:00 - 01:16:36:10
Speaker 1
When I'm looking at my list of questions. Okay, so, when people listen to your songs, what do you hope that they remember or carry with them? I guess, like, how do you want your music to connect with people?

01:16:36:12 - 01:16:36:23
Speaker 3
I don't know, I.

01:16:36:23 - 01:17:13:05
Speaker 2
Mean, I actually I hope they have thoughts like, I mean, of course, like, you like basic things like emotional satisfaction or like this or or like this makes me feel something. And I'm not even sure why or but like, my favorite thing that I heard or that or that people told me. Like, after hearing me on tour, my favorite thing to have people say was that they had and it was I.

01:17:13:07 - 01:17:32:15
Speaker 2
It was always one song, and the number of people that, like, texted me or shared in their story that like they saw me play the week prior and they still had Rosemary in each stuck in their head like, that's.

01:17:32:17 - 01:18:01:13
Speaker 2
That's like, yeah, that's love to me. That's good. That, that, that does it for me because because Rosemary Themes is a weird song. It's it's a difficult song to play. It was a very it was a very like emotionally and like and like mentally just writing the chord progressions or getting the chord progression like smooth or even just in my mind, it was like I would wake up in the middle of the night.

01:18:01:13 - 01:18:03:04
Speaker 2
It was thrilling. The chord progression.

01:18:06:08 - 01:18:12:17
Speaker 2
So like, I had like, my mom's on my shoulder right here again, going, like, not for popular.

01:18:12:17 - 01:18:18:03
Speaker 3
Consumption, not for popular consumption. Like people want like this.

01:18:18:05 - 01:18:36:11
Speaker 2
And then to have it be that on tour, the song that people most told me they had stuck in their head after hearing Blake was that song. So that's that's very satisfying because what it means is that like, like real music that was hard to write and still can connect with people.

01:18:36:13 - 01:18:38:13
Speaker 3
But yeah, even even.

01:18:38:13 - 01:18:39:13
Speaker 2
On a small level.

01:18:39:13 - 01:18:40:23
Speaker 3
Like, I don't know, like.

01:18:41:02 - 01:18:56:15
Speaker 2
The biggest crowd we played to on this tour, it was like 90, but most, most of the crowds were. Somewhere between like 12 and 30.

01:18:56:17 - 01:18:59:08
Speaker 3
40.

01:18:59:10 - 01:19:12:23
Speaker 2
Especially as we got further out of our comfort zones. Right. Meaning like as we got further away from San Diego for Alex. And then as we got further away from Texas, for me, like, the crowds just get smaller.

01:19:13:00 - 01:19:13:19
Speaker 3
Because.

01:19:13:21 - 01:19:18:08
Speaker 2
As you get further away and you're. And you're not, like, really famous or anything.

01:19:21:22 - 01:19:32:24
Speaker 2
So to have it be that. Even like some of the every few days is telling you that they've had.

01:19:33:01 - 01:19:37:11
Speaker 2
Really three of these, they're gonna have. Yeah. That's.

01:19:37:13 - 01:19:41:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, I want to I want to write more stuff that just, like, gets in your head and get out.

01:19:42:00 - 01:19:42:09
Speaker 3
I want to.

01:19:42:09 - 01:19:44:19
Speaker 2
I want to do more of that.

01:19:44:21 - 01:20:08:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. That's awesome. I think that's a great lesson. It kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier about, kind of just like going out of your comfort zone, and, and I, I love how you I'm glad that you did put that song out there, even if it wasn't for popular consumption, because, it's a great lesson about just kind of like pursuing or what, what you want.

01:20:08:20 - 01:20:13:04
Speaker 3
Maybe. Also, I,

01:20:13:06 - 01:20:41:02
Speaker 2
Like I my friend Dan, he he played. Oh, yeah. He my friend Dan and Kremer, he's, he's a member of this band called the Texas Gentlemen. And he plays he, he plays on Shakey Graves albums, and he's Shakey Graves touring keyboard player. And he, so he tours like 300 days a year, but he played he played my album release for Quiet Lives.

01:20:41:02 - 01:20:45:17
Speaker 2
My older record or older of the two,

01:20:45:19 - 01:20:49:10
Speaker 3
A second record, I guess a second fully,

01:20:49:12 - 01:20:54:00
Speaker 2
This guy came up to me when I was standing and there was I was like.

01:20:54:02 - 01:20:56:22
Speaker 3
I love you, I love your music.

01:20:56:22 - 01:21:00:15
Speaker 2
And then when the guy walked away and then I.

01:21:00:15 - 01:21:02:18
Speaker 3
Said to him.

01:21:02:20 - 01:21:05:13
Speaker 2
I just realized.

01:21:05:15 - 01:21:05:20
Speaker 3
I.

01:21:05:20 - 01:21:15:08
Speaker 2
Was like, I'm, I'm. I'm only famous and like a and like a 70 mile radius and like.

01:21:15:10 - 01:21:18:22
Speaker 3
And he said, and he said do like there's there's.

01:21:18:22 - 01:21:46:10
Speaker 2
Value in being like 70 mile radius radius. There's like it's like there's, there's a purpose to that, that that can be okay to and and on the road I was just like I would check my, my Spotify numbers every few days. Like there's still just going down or, or like they've totally.

01:21:46:12 - 01:21:53:19
Speaker 2
In the last like four months, they went from around 3000 to now like 800 something.

01:21:53:21 - 01:21:57:14
Speaker 3
And it's just.

01:21:57:16 - 01:21:57:23
Speaker 3
I don't.

01:21:57:23 - 01:22:16:14
Speaker 2
Know, like, maybe there's value in. Just like being a dude that nobody, really, nobody's ever going to know about, who has like, 852 listeners that like, really like romance each.

01:22:16:16 - 01:22:17:18
Speaker 3
Or.

01:22:17:20 - 01:22:20:13
Speaker 2
Or that really, really like my songs that it's,

01:22:20:13 - 01:22:44:18
Speaker 1
Well, I know it's, it's easy for somebody like me to say that, you know, don't don't look at the metrics because I had a woman on the podcast named Karen Vaughan, and she was telling me because I had the same thing where I'm like, oh, nobody listens to my podcast. Like, why am I even doing this? And her whole philosophy is if she can help one person and that's then that's good.

01:22:44:20 - 01:22:59:10
Speaker 1
And and I know again, it's easier, especially when it's like your, your livelihood and it's like what you're pursuing. But, I am grateful that I discovered your music, and I appreciate your art. Thank you. And so I think it's great.

01:22:59:10 - 01:23:00:21
Speaker 3
To get to.

01:23:00:23 - 01:23:01:18
Speaker 2
Dana. Dana.

01:23:01:18 - 01:23:18:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. Shout out Dana. And, so, yeah, I hope I'm excited to see what you, what you put out in the future. And, and I'm a fan. So thank you for for sharing your art with the world and also for, for coming on the podcast. It's been awesome.

01:23:18:19 - 01:23:39:23
Speaker 2
Oh, thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm I'm down. I'm always down to chat about music. I like, I love music, I was, I was having like a music day with my friend Cynthia the other day, and, there was a point when we were working on this jazz scene together, and I was looking at the chart.

01:23:39:23 - 01:23:43:11
Speaker 3
I was like, music is just so cool.

01:23:43:13 - 01:23:50:22
Speaker 1
Do you so do you think you're going to be putting out, the stripped down version of Memoriam?

01:23:50:24 - 01:23:52:16
Speaker 3
I mean, probably not only not.

01:23:52:16 - 01:24:17:00
Speaker 2
The entire record, but I'm going to do, like, pretty stripped down versions of probably, definitely Rosemary. And, I'm still trying to figure out what the others maybe catastrophic proportions, but it's not like a super heavily listen to song of mine. I don't think I, you know.

01:24:17:02 - 01:24:17:06
Speaker 3
You.

01:24:17:06 - 01:24:36:02
Speaker 2
Know, it's funny. I've gotten very specific, like emails and, and direct messages about catastrophic proportions, but it's not like it's not it's I don't think it's ever been in my top plays with it, but but it seems to resonate with like a few people here and there. And I like that.

01:24:37:15 - 01:24:47:17
Speaker 2
And the production is like a lot on that one, I think. So I might do a yeah, a pretty stripped down version of that.

01:24:47:19 - 01:24:54:24
Speaker 2
And then the song that I wrote on tour is going to be on this, this stripped down collection.

01:24:55:01 - 01:24:56:18
Speaker 3
And.

01:24:56:20 - 01:25:11:05
Speaker 2
And maybe this thing that I'm in the middle of writing that I'm trying to figure out what I'm what I'm going to give myself permission to do. Like change the time signature a lot.

01:25:11:07 - 01:25:13:11
Speaker 1
Awesome. Well, I'm excited to hear

01:25:13:11 - 01:25:15:07
Speaker 1
what you'll be coming out with next.

01:25:15:09 - 01:25:16:18
Speaker 3
Thank you. Thanks a lot.

01:25:16:18 - 01:25:17:00


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