Pursuing Passion: A Conversation on Art and the Creative Process with Evan Siegal

In this episode, I sit down with my brother, Evan Siegal — a filmmaker, animator, and musician based in Los Angeles. We talk about what inspired him to pursue filmmaking, how and why he taught himself how to create virtual worlds using immersive XR tools, how he deals with creative blocks and rejection, and what it really means to make art that feels meaningful. 

Evan's Website: https://www.evansiegal.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/evan_siegal

Transcript

00:00:10:19 - 00:00:15:02
Unknown
welcome to the first episode of Wearing Pants Again. I'm Lauren Siegal.

00:00:15:02 - 00:00:24:06
Unknown
Wearing Pants Again is a podcast about identity, creativity, and the courage it takes to show up for your work, for yourself, and for what matters.

00:00:24:06 - 00:00:30:16
Unknown
I am in the process of figuring out what that looks like in my own life, and I'm curious to talk about it with others.

00:00:30:16 - 00:00:42:19
Unknown
Each week, I'll be having conversations with artists, makers, and people navigating their creative paths to talk about the process, the doubts, the wins, and everything in the middle.

00:00:42:19 - 00:00:54:16
Unknown
I couldn't think of a more perfect person to interview for my first episode. It is somebody who I've known my whole life and have pretty much looked up to for as long as I can remember.

00:00:54:18 - 00:00:57:15
Unknown
And that person is my older brother, Evan.

00:00:57:15 - 00:01:07:21
Unknown
Evan Siegal is a filmmaker, animator, and musician based in Los Angeles, working at the intersection of immersive technology and emotional storytelling.

00:01:07:23 - 00:01:20:02
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His work blends surrealism with sincerity, exploring memory, grief, identity and transformation through virtual worlds, generative tools and experimental narratives.

00:01:20:02 - 00:01:22:00
Unknown
I hope you enjoy the conversation.

00:01:22:00 - 00:01:26:21
Unknown
Welcome, Evan. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be the first guest.

00:01:26:21 - 00:01:40:21
Unknown
So tell me a little bit about what inspired you to pursue filmmaking. So when I was in high school, I was in my, high school marching band.

00:01:40:21 - 00:01:59:21
Unknown
And, you know, we're originally from Texas. And for those who don't know, Texas high school marching band is like a cut above a lot of other places in the country. It's very intense, very militaristic. Like you have to invest a lot of time, a lot of energy, and, you know, that was my passion in high school. And it was like my whole world.

00:01:59:21 - 00:02:23:04
Unknown
And I was so obsessed with it. And, I found out that there was an officer position in the leadership team, and that position was to document the marching season and, showcase, you know, all the hard work we put in to this competitive show that we take around the state and around the country. And it was just a it's a good way to reminisce at the end of the year.

00:02:23:07 - 00:02:43:13
Unknown
And I remember when I was a freshman and even a sophomore, you know, the end of the year would come. We'd be at our end of the year party for band, and we'd watch this video, and the people who are making it were just totally phoning it in. It didn't feel like they were trying. Or, you know, I overheard one of the people who was doing it.

00:02:43:13 - 00:03:00:11
Unknown
She was like, oh, I just had to cook this up a couple nights before I was up all night, blah, blah, blah. I remember thinking I was like, I don't know anything about filmmaking. I don't know anything about shooting and editing videos, but I feel like we put in so much work that like this deserves more effort and attention.

00:03:00:12 - 00:03:04:18
Unknown
So when I was a junior, I decided I wanted to throw my hat in the ring

00:03:04:18 - 00:03:10:23
Unknown
because, you know, this was going to be a memory that we were all going to take with us for the rest of our lives.

00:03:11:01 - 00:03:30:03
Unknown
So I decided, you know, even though I don't know what I'm doing, I would at least put in the effort to try and make it as great as I could. So I used a shitty camcorder and just spent a lot of time learning how to shoot an edit. And I was putting so much attention into this thing.

00:03:30:05 - 00:03:56:01
Unknown
And, you know, since I had this guaranteed audience of the entire band and, you know, whatever, I knew that this had to be good. So I invested all this time and effort and on the other side of it, when I finished the product and showed it, you know, usually the band end of the year video was like a 20 minute thing, and I made mine like an hour, 20, like full length movie.

00:03:56:03 - 00:04:13:23
Unknown
And I remember showing it at the banquet. Usually it was like, oh, we show the video, you watch it clap, you move on. We watched the entire thing. And I remember at the end, like there was a the whole audience got up and there's a standing ovation. Everyone was so excited about how much fun it was to watch all of that.

00:04:14:01 - 00:04:30:18
Unknown
And, you know, I ended up getting elected to do it the following year. And I just fell in love with, like, you know, having the camera in my hands and being able to edit and tell this story and, you know, hearing people say that this was, like, so meaningful to them and that they were going to remember these videos for the rest of the lives.

00:04:30:19 - 00:05:05:10
Unknown
I think that that resonated with me. So I wanted to find a way to do that with everything that I do. I love that, and you probably already know this, but for anybody who might be listening, I basically what every copied in your footsteps our whole childhood. So I decided to join the band as well. And then I also, well, I saw that you were historians and I decided to be a historian, and, it really was fun.

00:05:05:12 - 00:05:28:07
Unknown
Because I feel like you, got I got to combine, you know, my interest in photography and then making videos. And, so after you were historian, is it was it, during that time that you decided to pursue going to film school? What kind of made you decide that you wanted to pursue it as your career?

00:05:28:09 - 00:05:48:21
Unknown
Yeah, I would say it was during that time I originally was like taking a lot of, like really random electives, like at school, like there was an accounting class, like ten people were taking, but I remember I just really liked the teacher and I was, like, interested in it. You know, it's not like a fun kind of, like, puzzle solving kind of a thing.

00:05:48:21 - 00:06:02:17
Unknown
And I remembered hearing at one point, like, accountants can make good money. So I was like, oh, I'll just do that. I don't really know what I'm going to do with my life. So I took all these accounting classes and I was like, oh, I'll just go to a business school and major in accounting and that was like my plan.

00:06:02:19 - 00:06:27:07
Unknown
But, you know, as time we got closer to submit college applications and things like that, I was like, oh man. Like, wouldn't it be awesome if I just tried to go for something like wild instead and like, try to go to like a film school or something and try to make something happen. And then I ended up pivoting last minute and doing that.

00:06:27:09 - 00:06:59:23
Unknown
And so I guess kind of jumping forward to where we are now. You have taught yourself, some really cool new technologies like Unreal Engine, which I know a lot of people find intimidating. So what made you want to learn that? And how did you go about teaching yourself? Yeah, I, so I graduated school. Me and some friends, teamed up, and we made, like, a little production company together.

00:07:00:01 - 00:07:18:13
Unknown
And our goal was to make commercials and music videos and try to find a way making money doing that. And it was going well for a while. And, you know, we started to hit a point where, you know, our ultimate dream was to pivot into making feature films, like full length movies that you would see, like a theater or something.

00:07:18:15 - 00:07:44:15
Unknown
And, you know, a lot of the ideas that I come up with and like that, I would write like scripts for, you know, jot, jot up, it's very like world building. You imagine it is surreal, like larger than life, all these things. So, you know, I mean, this group of guys, we were writing scripts and coming up with these ideas and we had opportunities to pitch to real production companies and real people in Hollywood like these ideas.

00:07:44:17 - 00:08:01:23
Unknown
And I started to notice a trend every single time we would do this, where we would pitch the idea, pitched scripts, show them all these images and all these drawings we'd made, like how we thought out all these ideas and, we kept getting the same feedback, which was cool idea. I love the story. I love the script.

00:08:01:23 - 00:08:17:04
Unknown
But for your first thing, no one's ever going to fund this. It's two world build building. It's going to cost too much money. They're like, why don't you try just making it like an indie, blah blah blah blah blah instead? And I just remembered being frustrated continuing to hear that. I was like, oh, if you like the idea, why don't you just take a chance on it, you know?

00:08:17:04 - 00:08:42:15
Unknown
And, I quickly just got very frustrated with that. And I'm the kind of person where if I want something done right, I'm going to do it myself. I don't like waiting for people to give me opportunities. I like to just find a way to build things on my own. And, you know, I graduated school around the pandemic, or not around the pandemic, literally during the beginning of the pandemic in 2020.

00:08:42:17 - 00:09:04:00
Unknown
I remember, you know, everyone was starting these, like, hobbies, like, I'm locked inside, I'm going to start doing this new skill. I'm gonna start teaching myself. And I had a lot of friends, who were posting about them teaching themselves 3D art. And I remember there was one guy in particular who went to my school, and I was looking at the stuff he was making in a program called blender.

00:09:04:02 - 00:09:19:21
Unknown
And I was just blown away. I was like, oh my God, this looks so freaking cool. And he's making all these crazy scenes and all these cool cinematic shots. I was like, he's just doing it from his computer for free because all of these softwares are free. And I just remember my mind was blown. I was like, oh my God, I want to do that.

00:09:19:21 - 00:09:43:04
Unknown
Like I could just make I should just make the movies that I'm thinking of from my computer. I don't have to like, beg somebody to let me do it. So after finding out that all these softwares are free, and that you can practically learn through tutorials on YouTube, I basically just, I tried to teach myself blender at first, and it was a complete failure.

00:09:43:04 - 00:10:06:05
Unknown
I got overwhelmed and stressed out and I gave up very quickly. And, I was very preoccupied with this company that I mentioned standing this up with my friends. But as the years went on, our company slowly, we slowly lost business. Slowly. You know, it came time to we had to close the doors, which aren't getting enough clients, and I needed to make money.

00:10:06:07 - 00:10:30:15
Unknown
And, you know, I decided what a better time to try this again, you know, with a different program, maybe. So I started learning Unreal Engine, through YouTube and actually, you know, did it right this time and took my time instead of trying to bite off more than I could chew. And I it ended up turning into this amazing, crazy new career for me.

00:10:30:17 - 00:10:59:10
Unknown
I think that's so awesome and kind of an example of how you don't need to necessarily go to school to learn a lot of these skills. I'm sure, some school was probably invaluable in a lot of areas, but, would you say all the stuff that you're doing now, is mostly things that you've taught yourself? I mean, as far as skills, yes.

00:10:59:10 - 00:11:14:03
Unknown
But, you know, I still see some value in having gone to school. Like, I met a lot of people, made a lot of, like, good connections and friends. And, you know, the people, if you that you go to, like, any sort of art school, if those are the people you're going to be working with for the rest of your life.

00:11:14:03 - 00:11:24:03
Unknown
So, you know, knowing a lot of people just doing things and entertainment is definitely like helped to.

00:11:24:05 - 00:12:00:10
Unknown
So I wanted to ask about, one of the things that you and I have talked about is when you were building your just the whole process of building out your videography portfolio, when you were starting up your company. Can you talk about how you would, some of the projects that you worked on? And kind of maybe they weren't necessarily paid gigs, but you had a vision and tell me a little bit about that whole process.

00:12:00:12 - 00:12:16:23
Unknown
Yeah, I mean, I when I was first starting out, I, you know, I realized like, everybody has a portfolio and, you know, with the kinds of things you want to do in creative fields, people don't really care what school you went to, nor should they. You know, they just want to be like, this is what you want to do.

00:12:16:23 - 00:12:31:14
Unknown
Like, oh, you want to shoot an edit? Music videos like let me see a music video, like, let me see if you're good at it. And, you know, in a way, I really liked that challenge because I don't I didn't like the security of being like, oh, I went to school. I can just go walk. And, you know, it's not like an office job.

00:12:31:15 - 00:12:47:14
Unknown
It's like I have a degree from blah blah, blah. Like I'm qualified to do this now. It's like you can have a degree from wherever the hell, but if you are not good at what you do in the filmmaking world, no one's going to hire you. So, you know, I'm starting out this company, me and my friends, we realized, okay, we need to start shooting stuff.

00:12:47:16 - 00:13:04:18
Unknown
So anything that's good, even though we're not going to have access to budgets and, you know, being in marching band back in Texas, you know, I had a lot of friends from marching band who went on to pursue a career in music and try to be in bands or have, like, singer songwriter careers, you know, on their own.

00:13:05:00 - 00:13:25:10
Unknown
So I was like, oh, what better people to just volunteer to make free music videos for? Because my thought process was like, okay, we have a camera. That's all we really need. And you know, if I'm offering to make a music video for free for these people, like the exchange will be like, I get to do whatever I want, like to build my portfolio and you get a free music video, like it's a win win.

00:13:25:12 - 00:13:50:04
Unknown
So me and my buddies that we were starting this production company with, we packed up our car, drove from California, back home to Texas. We were staying in my mom's bedroom in her apartment, and we went out every single day for, I think, a week and a half or two weeks, and we just filmed a bunch of music videos for a bunch of different people, that I knew.

00:13:50:05 - 00:14:14:13
Unknown
We shot three music videos total in that time. In two different cities in Texas. And yeah, we came back and we had three music videos. And, you know, we were also we had a little bit of a scheme going because, you know, part of the other avenue we were trying to tackle was getting commercial work.

00:14:14:15 - 00:14:35:09
Unknown
And, you know, there was I couldn't figure out how to get like an interesting brand to talk with us because we didn't want to do basic stuff. We wanted to do things in like the avant garde, like fashion world and things that were like more like trivia. Interesting. So we had this idea where we were like, we should shoot a, spec commercial for a high fashion brand.

00:14:35:11 - 00:14:52:14
Unknown
For for anyone who doesn't know, a spec commercial is basically like, you can go out and shoot an idea on your own. And, you know, you can pick a brand and make, like a fake commercial that you can use to show commercial agencies or brands that you're capable of making a good commercial. People do this all the time.

00:14:52:16 - 00:15:18:09
Unknown
So our idea was to make a spec commercial for YSL Saint Laurent. Now, obviously we did not have money for a budget or anything crazy. So what we did was we had this concept, of it was a single shot of this jacket on fire and it would play back in reverse. So in the commercial you'd see the jacket on fire, then the fire would fizzle out and a model would come in and put the jacket on.

00:15:18:11 - 00:15:40:04
Unknown
So what we did was we went to goodwill, got a $10 blazer. We went to Home Depot and built a little hanger to put on it, to set it on fire. We did all this practically, probably illegally, on a beach in California, and we went at night, lit the thing on fire, filmed it, did the whole shebang, and it turned out really cool.

00:15:40:06 - 00:15:56:16
Unknown
And we just lied and went to all these brands and said, yeah, we made this commercial for Saint Laurent. We didn't tell them as a spec commercial, and it turned out so good. People just believed it. Nobody did their due diligence, and that's how we started getting hired for stuff.

00:15:56:18 - 00:16:27:00
Unknown
So can you tell me a little bit, and I'll for people who might not know exactly what you do, can you explain the different VR, AR kind of technologies that you're primarily working with these days? Yeah. So nowadays I'm working less with things you watch on a traditional screen and more of like things you would watch with a headset on your head or, you know, looking through filters in a phone or something like that.

00:16:27:01 - 00:16:59:19
Unknown
So the blanket term for all these technologies is called XR, extended realities, if you will, like world that exist beyond our own. You know, obviously the one most people know is VR, which is a headset is on your head and you're in an experience, either tethered to a computer or not. There's AR which is, augmented reality, which, you know, most of us probably know through like Snapchat filters on your phone where you hold up in selfie mode and little dog ears pop up.

00:16:59:21 - 00:17:34:14
Unknown
It's basically virtual worlds mixed with roam through these screens. And, then there's mixed reality, which is often done with a VR headset on, where using the pass through cameras on the headset, you can see virtual sort of animations and storytelling, like in your room or wherever the place you have the headset on. And how long after you taught yourself these tools did you start getting paid gigs?

00:17:34:16 - 00:18:07:23
Unknown
It took one successful project that I worked on with, an old partner, and that got into some festivals and that made it pretty easy to jump into getting work. But yeah, I think it took it took a little bit of a different path for me with this because, you know, when I first started getting those jobs, I felt super intimidated because I was like a lot of these people on these teams that I'm joining, they're all traditionally trained.

00:18:07:23 - 00:18:24:04
Unknown
They probably know more than me. What if I they asked me to do something that I don't know how to do? Like what am I going to do? And I just kind of had a trial by fire situation where sometimes, like, I would get a job that I can do, you know, how to do this? I'd just be like, yeah, yeah, of course.

00:18:24:04 - 00:18:40:22
Unknown
Of course. I have no idea what the hell they were talking about. And often times I would just wait until they would ask me to do something and I would just be at home, like googling, like, how do I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and try to just make it look good. So it was like, fake it til you make it situation for sure.

00:18:41:00 - 00:19:17:02
Unknown
I wanted to talk a little bit about your short film called I Want to Go Home, please. Well, I'll let you talk a little bit, maybe about the why you created that film. But specifically, why I also bring this up is when I watched it, it. Well, for one, it made me it elicited a lot of emotions in me, and I just thought it was so cool how you were able to create this short film just entirely out of your imagination.

00:19:17:05 - 00:19:47:02
Unknown
So can you tell me a little bit about the inspiration behind that project? For sure, yeah, so that short film is made entirely using AI. AI from a company called runway. And you know, the reason I got into all that is they periodically host these contests called Gen 48, which basically they give you some very, like, vague guidelines and some prompts, and they give you 48 hours to make a short film within those guidelines.

00:19:47:04 - 00:20:09:07
Unknown
And, you know, I saw that contest. I was like, oh, that sounds fun. I've got nothing going on this weekend. I'll do it. And so I made that short film in two days, edited it together, made all the shots sound, designed it, yada, yada, yada. And I ended up spinning it and, and ended up getting the people's one of the people's Choice awards in the contest.

00:20:09:09 - 00:20:30:12
Unknown
And it's kind of crazy because ever since then, I've been kind of cemented in this, like, AI world, and runway has gone on to become a very big company as of today. Like they have partnerships like Lionsgate and all of these things. So, you know, it's so early. It was an early step and this new sort of budding medium.

00:20:30:14 - 00:21:02:04
Unknown
What did the process of making that short film teach you? It taught me that, you know, it actually really gave me a lot of respect for AI storytelling as a medium. And I know it's like super controversial. Everyone thinks I was going to replace filmmakers and artists, and I don't really think that way. I think it's a like the same way the, like a film camera, like a, like a movie camera didn't replace like photography.

00:21:02:06 - 00:21:20:18
Unknown
I don't think I is going to replace real filmmaking. I think it's a cool way to democratize people who want to tell stories and don't have access to Hollywood resources. And I don't think it's meant to replace I think it's meant to supplement. It's I think it's meant to be its own category of entertainment. And I think it's really cool.

00:21:20:18 - 00:21:48:18
Unknown
Like, even if you use it to, like, I don't know, turn your dreams into a video clip or something, like, it just allows people to hold more creative tools in their hands from their homes. And yeah, I don't know. I just think all that stuff is really interesting. When you are starting a project, I guess I want to ask a little bit about your creative process.

00:21:48:20 - 00:22:01:21
Unknown
Do you usually have the whole vision mapped out, or does it kind of take shape during the whole editing process? More often than not, it takes shape as the process goes

00:22:02:19 - 00:22:26:01
Unknown
I've kind of learned over time, like, just with, like, specific. I need to leave room for like, serendipity, you know, just like letting things happen and letting surprises be surprises. Because I learned that, like, when I try to make something based off of a script or, you know, like a super hard set, you know, rule or guideline, it kind of limits me a lot.

00:22:26:02 - 00:22:44:13
Unknown
And I find myself being stuck versus like when I naturally just let something evolve and change as it kind of comes to like for that short film, that you're referencing. I want to go home, please. Like, I first in the in the 48 hours I had to make that I only spent probably 24 hours making that film.

00:22:44:13 - 00:22:54:01
Unknown
The first 24 hours, I was making a completely different film that just wasn't really working. So I scrapped and started over and made that, so.

00:22:55:09 - 00:23:26:13
Unknown
One of the things that, that you and I have also talked about, is, well, you've always told me that you don't need fancy gear to make great work. Can you explain to me your mindset behind that? Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I went to school like, film school in an environment with a lot of people who, you know, they have, like, a lot of fancy, flashy toys and things.

00:23:26:13 - 00:23:47:09
Unknown
And I would I remember I would look at some of the films and be like, but the story sucks, you know, like, or the lighting's bad or all these things. And that's what I, I took a class with a professor who was talking specifically about, you know, cinematography, but also the way it combines with the story is like, okay, if you have a good story, it's universal.

00:23:47:09 - 00:24:12:17
Unknown
It can be in any medium, but if you're doing it with film and you want to shoot it and make it look good, you only need three things of framing, staging and lighting. Whatever. You could be using your phone or you could be using $1 million camera. It doesn't matter. Like framing, staging, lighting. That's it. And I remember like once I started to think about that and, you know, I would mess around with like camcorders or like my phone, I was like, oh, like, that's completely true.

00:24:12:17 - 00:24:22:11
Unknown
It really doesn't matter what you know. And sort of every project that I work on, I really try to employ those principles for sure.

00:24:22:11 - 00:24:54:00
Unknown
I also wanted to talk a little bit about social media. In this day and age, everybody is kind of on social media. We're always, well, not always, but we're consuming a lot of content. How do you how much do you think that that affects your own creative ideas? And, in the kind of work that you make, I think it's a net positive.

00:24:54:00 - 00:25:22:02
Unknown
Personally, I think it's really cool to constantly be inspired by what other people are doing. Like I on my Instagram page, I literally have a saved gallery and I call it film inspo. Like anytime I see something cool that somebody's me, I'm like, oh my gosh, I want to remember that. Like, that's super inspiring, you know? Because back before social media, you know, if you wanted to be inspired, you had to go to like, a physical place, you know, like a museum or something like that.

00:25:22:02 - 00:25:42:19
Unknown
And those are still amazing. And I'm not saying social media has replaced museums, but it like, again, it's about like accessibility and democratization. Like, if I want to be inspired from home, I can if I want to go to museum, I also can, you know, and yeah, it's just it's a way for everybody to share their work, show their voice.

00:25:42:21 - 00:26:11:09
Unknown
And yeah, I think it's been a really cool thing. I've been able to meet a lot of people through social media and connect with like minded artists. And, you know, it's been a great way to get feedback on things that I'm making. So overall, I think it's pretty good. I know that I, well, personally sometimes struggle with, you know, you see so many people, there's a lot of short form content out there.

00:26:11:09 - 00:26:50:22
Unknown
And, and then you see all these people going viral and by doing specific types of videos or following trends, do you ever find it hard to separate what you separate, what you want to create from what you see? Everybody else making, I find that when I see what it's like resonating with other people, I try to understand like what it is, you know, because ultimately, at the end of the day, if you're making stuff in a bubble and on seeing it, it's like the whole, like, tree, if the tree falls in the forest doesn't make a sound if no one's around to hear it.

00:26:51:00 - 00:27:05:23
Unknown
And, you know, I do believe that you should make things that you're interested in and not try to appease other people, but also it's like, good to learn, like, oh, if this is going viral or if a lot of people are liking this, like what's resonating? Is there like some universal message that is tapping into, is it just really funny?

00:27:05:23 - 00:27:28:20
Unknown
Is it really shocking? Like, what is it? Like and I think those principles have marinated their way into like actual like movies that have won Oscars. Like, I think a really good example is everything everywhere all at Once like that won Best Picture. And that movie is just full of like, ridiculous, crazy shit. You know, I think it's that's a movie that works for this generation.

00:27:28:20 - 00:28:01:18
Unknown
People who just want craziness, fast pace over the top, which is like representative of like what's going on in social media. So, you know, if you make a like I'm a big fan of like Slow Boy, a lot of people will call boring movies too. And this was really not a place for those today, which is sad. But, you know, part of being an artist, I think, is like knowing the times that you live in and being aware of, like what people are consuming not to appease them, but to understand them.

00:28:01:20 - 00:28:45:17
Unknown
So do you ever feel like you need to take a break from social media to protect your own creativity in your own, you know, creative vision? Yeah. For sure. I mean, just like with anything in life, it's all about a balance. Like, I'm not going to say social media. Social media is littered with horrible things. Like, like I could talk on and on about how terrible for society and this entire world that Twitter is like Twitter is a useless like garbage disposal of of a social media, you know, and, you know, those things can affect your mental health even if you're like, oh, I just use Instagram to look at art like I'm someone

00:28:45:17 - 00:29:04:22
Unknown
who deals with depression. Like I'm not above comparing myself to other people's successes and failures and things like that. So, you know, it's like a healthy dose of anything, right? Like chocolate tastes good. If you eat a bunch of chocolate, you're going to get big and you might die, you know, which is hyperbolic, but like, you know, the point.

00:29:04:22 - 00:29:36:06
Unknown
Still saying it's like a healthy dose of everything. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess for me personally, it is also it's. Yeah, it's just not trying to work on not not worrying so much about what people think, and like how people will perceive what I post because I, I'm trying to remind myself, you like I cannot, I can't control at all what what people think.

00:29:36:08 - 00:30:00:07
Unknown
Yeah. That's tough. I mean, because I have had instances where like, I'll show something to someone and I want them to like it, like I, I want with every bone in my body then to like and sometimes that just doesn't happen. Sometimes there's like, oh, that was good or I didn't like it at all. And that's something that's been hard for me to, to get used to.

00:30:00:09 - 00:30:22:03
Unknown
And oftentimes I'll remind myself, like, I'll think of, you know, big artists like, like, even just musicians, like people not in the same field as me. Like, think of, like Taylor Swift, for example. Like super talented, super successful. Like, I'm not the biggest fan of her music, but I admire her talents and things like that. But it doesn't matter what I think about her music.

00:30:22:03 - 00:30:41:05
Unknown
She's the most popular musician in the world. Like million billions of people love her. So it's like things like that. Like even the person on top of an industry has a bunch of people who not, myself included. I think she's fine. But like, there are people who just say, like, her music sucks and who cares what those people think?

00:30:41:05 - 00:31:14:06
Unknown
Like she has billions of people validating how great her music is. So do you ever feel nervous when sharing your work and putting it out there? And if so, how do you deal with that vulnerable ability? I don't nowadays because if I feel good about something, I'll put it out. I used to deal with that a lot because I used to think like, oh, if not everybody loves it, then I don't want to know about it.

00:31:14:06 - 00:31:33:10
Unknown
Like, I was so scared of someone being like, oh, I don't like this because I would be like, oh, my art is an extension of myself. If you don't like my movie, then you don't like me or you're criticizing me, which is not true. But that was definitely a big obstacle for me to overcome. Yeah.

00:31:33:10 - 00:31:43:15
Unknown
How do you find balance between creating for your clients or your job and then creating just for yourself?

00:31:43:17 - 00:32:06:00
Unknown
I always make sure that I'm taking on freelancing jobs because I work as a freelancer now. I will only take jobs that allow me flexibility to work on my own stuff in my free time. I will never take a job that's going to consume my entire life force and energy like, I like working on jobs. It's like, hey, here's the scope of work.

00:32:06:04 - 00:32:25:15
Unknown
I'm going to make it. I'm going to deliver it to you. And then we both move on with our lives. Last year I got offered a job, Apple, on their Vision Pro team, and I turned it down because I was like, I want to be a director. That's my dream in life. And the minute I take that job that dream is over.

00:32:25:17 - 00:32:44:16
Unknown
Because I'm gonna be full time. Just focused on that. It's like a big commitment. It's a big salary. And I said no, because that's not what I want to do. And yeah, it's it's it's it takes a lot of persistence and it's, you know, it's one of those things where I tell people that story about the Apple thing, and people are like, wow, like that.

00:32:44:18 - 00:33:03:23
Unknown
You must feel really cool about that. It's like in some way, yeah. But in some way I'm like, did I just make a really dumb mistake? But I don't know. I think there's a certain degree with like, finding like knowing you need that balance is like having a certain, like, narcissistic, like belief in yourself that that's worth doing.

00:33:04:01 - 00:33:45:20
Unknown
So maybe it's it's maybe it's based on nothing, I don't know, but yeah. Hey, I respect it. I also wanted to ask about your music as you've been putting out music under the name of Thought Cabinet. So, can you tell me what made you decide to start putting your music out there? Yeah. I mean, I was at a point, like, I started, I started producing like, three years ago, and I remember I was at a point where I was like, feeling like I've just been doing a lot of filmmaking stuff, and I was like, I just need a medium to do stuff in.

00:33:45:20 - 00:34:03:18
Unknown
That doesn't matter, like I don't. I was like, I don't really want to be a musician, but I like making music. I did band for seven years. Like I'm very familiar with music. I was doing music before I was doing film. Really. So I'm like, okay, like, this will be a fun thing to learn and just do as, like a throwaway.

00:34:03:18 - 00:34:36:01
Unknown
Like, I don't really care where it goes, sort of a thing. Just do it just for fun. And that kind of escalated a lot. And I learned so much about music production and producing and making like electronic music. And it's kind of a weird serendipity, because now I'm at a point where my career as a 3D artist and like VR filmmaker is now intersect with my career as a musician, which I didn't really foresee it going this way, but I just that is just how it turned out.

00:34:36:03 - 00:34:56:16
Unknown
They talked about that. Yeah. I mean, so it's resulted in really weird, interesting things. Like, for example, last year I started as the lead 3D artist on the Coachella innovation team. And, you know, I was in charge of a lot of, like, promo materials, 3D rendering things for like activations on site on some of the stages and things like that.

00:34:56:18 - 00:35:17:18
Unknown
I remember one of the activations I was there's there's an LED wall in there and they need like this looping animation that I was making for it. And the activation at the last moment, like a week before the festival, before I was going to go on site, might be working. They were like, hey, these people, you know, they're kind of out of money.

00:35:17:18 - 00:35:41:15
Unknown
They're kind of out of budget, but they want some, like looping, like ambient music to play in the booth. And my boss was like, I remember seeing something about you posting on Instagram that you make music. Do you want to just take a crack at this? They weren't offering me extra money, or anything, but I was like, I mean, in a weird backwards way, I can say I had my, like, officially at Coachella, which is kind of true, but also kind of not.

00:35:41:15 - 00:35:59:00
Unknown
But I was like, I'll take it. So I just made this like these, like super ambient kind of loopy things or whatever. And then when I went to the place on site like that booth just to check it out and see my work, I was like, oh, wait, that's that's the song that I mean, they were playing it.

00:35:59:02 - 00:36:26:15
Unknown
So you've played at Coachella in the most backwards, unofficial way? Yes. But yeah, now I'm interested in making, like VR music, experiences. I'm actually working on one with a very close friend of mine and producing this album together, and we're gonna bring it to life in VR. Is that the VR techno album movie? Yes. Tell me a little bit about that.

00:36:26:17 - 00:36:55:17
Unknown
Yeah. So, I have a good friend. His name is Mark here. His artist name is, Sonic. 509 K. And he went to music school, and he's a super talented producer. And, you know, we had a lot of mutual friends from school. And, you know, post-graduation, we kind of started hanging out, and he taught me basically everything he knows about producing, like, I learned everything I did from him.

00:36:55:17 - 00:37:11:04
Unknown
And while we were hanging out, we was like, oh, like, we both like making music, like, let's just make an album together. So we came up with this whole like storyline in this whole thing about this, like nightclub in the afterlife that people go to party at before they're reincarnated. And that's like the the name of the album.

00:37:11:04 - 00:37:36:11
Unknown
And it's also the, the way the songs unfold and became like this whole big thing. And now we're in production, the album is done and, we're making it into a VR experience. And this week, actually, we're working with a character artist who is making digital doubles of he and I. So we are going to be in the VR experiences ourselves.

00:37:36:13 - 00:37:40:05
Unknown
Which is pretty funny. But yeah.

00:37:40:05 - 00:37:54:16
Unknown
Do you have to have a headset to watch that, to get the real experience? Yes, yes. Okay. Well, sounds really cool. I'm excited to see it. Thanks. It really should be interesting.

00:37:54:21 - 00:38:24:04
Unknown
I don't want to end on a negative, so. But I did want to ask. I'll ask a fun question after this, but, do you ever face creative blocks, in any of your artistic, endeavors? And if so, how do you handle those? I mean, yeah, I think anyone who is an artist, even if someone's an artist and says they never have blocks, they're probably lying or they're not a real artist.

00:38:24:04 - 00:38:52:16
Unknown
Like every artistically minded person gets stuck. Every artistically minded person gets frustrated. Feels like the idea sucks at a certain point. That's like a normal part of the process. And I remember, I believe, I don't want to misquote, I think it was Rick Rubin who said something like this. I don't think it was verbatim, but something to the effect of time spent away from a project as often as, or more important than the time you spent on a project.

00:38:52:18 - 00:39:14:15
Unknown
And once I finally understood what that meant, it really, really helps me because I'm the kind of person where, you know, I'd be sitting here like, this scene is not working. Like, why is this not working? Like, God damn it, like, what do I do? And then once I learned to step away from a project, I'd be, like, on a walk or just out in the middle of nowhere, I'd be like, literally, the light bulb goes off.

00:39:14:15 - 00:39:35:22
Unknown
I was like, wait, I know what to do. And I would feel like compelled to, like, rush on was like, I have this new idea to fix this, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, I, I've derived a lot of inspiration from for the artistic process, from Rick Rubin and the stuff he's talked about, where it's like, you know, you need to let the muse come to you.

00:39:35:22 - 00:40:07:08
Unknown
Like, if you try to make the muse and force it like you're you're laying down this heavy hand and it's not really getting you to where you need to be. So learning to be patient with things, knowing that you're not going to figure it out overnight, it's never going to be perfect the first time around. Like learning the art of patience and the art of willingness to change and take notes and take criticism.

00:40:07:10 - 00:40:35:11
Unknown
You know, it's all it's all a process of getting good at that stuff. You were actually the one who told me about The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron, which I read and then reread. But part of the practice in that book is the Morning pages, where you write three pages longhand every day. Just whatever comes to your mind.

00:40:35:13 - 00:41:04:19
Unknown
And I was also looking into trying to learn about songwriting. And one of the things that somebody that I read was saying is to just write every day just to make it a practice, rather than like just waiting for an idea to come to you. It's almost like you just have to go through the act of doing it.

00:41:04:21 - 00:41:41:04
Unknown
Do you ever experience that where you're just trying, just getting yourself to to create, even if you have no idea where it's going? Yeah. I mean, I think that's like a big part of creation itself is like, you know, letting things authentically happen and unfold is like a really beautiful part of the process. I think, you know, sometimes, like you'll sit down with certain intentions, like, like when I sit down at open like Unreal Engine and I'll start like sketching some stuff, like I'll sit down, be like, okay, I'm going to try this and then I'll try a bunch of other things.

00:41:41:04 - 00:42:01:07
Unknown
I'm like, wait, no, this is a better idea, or oh, this looks better. I like this better, you know, and just there's something in everybody's subconscious, maybe this is like some spiritual B.S., but I genuinely believe this said that, like, it's like the invisible hand that guides you, and you can't talk to it, but it talks through you.

00:42:01:09 - 00:42:23:01
Unknown
And that's like the, like the, the muse or the thing that's like, I can't figure this out. And then a week later, you're walking through the park with your headphones in and the right song plays, and you see that thing, just whatever it might be, and it just gives you that idea, like, that's that, like invisible hand and sometimes it talks to you regularly.

00:42:23:01 - 00:42:47:17
Unknown
Sometimes it takes breaks and you don't hear from it for months, but it's there in every single person. And you know, learning how to nurture it and have that balance with it, I think, is, you know, it's a part of being like an artist and in your industry, in the film industry and I would say, and creative field in general, there can be a lot of rejection.

00:42:47:21 - 00:43:28:10
Unknown
So how do you kind of stay motivated when you face rejection or any setbacks? I would be lying if I said I'm perfect with this because rejection still gets to me. I'm not above getting rejected like it hurts. And, you know, I think the biggest key that I've learned is like having a good support system around you and like, people who can, like, keep encouraging you and people who can give you honest feedback because, you know, it's a tough it's a tough thing when you're submitting to film festivals because like, these really big popular ones, like thousands of people will submit to them and it's up to two people, usually like two programmers

00:43:28:10 - 00:43:50:02
Unknown
through like just a small handful of people to determine whether or not your movie belongs there. And you know, the analogy I always like, tell people is like, have you ever gone to see a movie with, like, I don't know, a group of five friends and you leave the movie theater like the odds that every single person love the movie that doesn't usually happen.

00:43:50:04 - 00:44:06:19
Unknown
And if it does, usually there are some parts that, like people did like and other parts that people did like. Like it's just so wildly subjective of I know that I'll leave the movie theaters sometimes with friends and these like, big, you know, commercial movies that are in all the theaters, all over the country, all over the world.

00:44:06:21 - 00:44:22:01
Unknown
And I'll walk out and what the hell was that? Garbage. And my friends like, that was amazing. I loved it then. Like that dichotomy right there. It's like, imagine like your film in the hands of like two programmers and maybe like you could show it to 30 people, like 30 people in your circle. And everyone's like, this movie is the best.

00:44:22:01 - 00:44:32:04
Unknown
And you show to those two programmers, I'm like, I don't like it next. Like, that's just that's the game. And you have to keep going until something hits.

00:44:32:04 - 00:45:00:02
Unknown
So I just have a couple more questions, if that's okay. If you could go back and, well, obviously starting from where you are now, when you look back, if you could give a piece of advice to your younger self, who is just about to embark on the creative journey, what would you, what would you say?

00:45:00:04 - 00:45:23:00
Unknown
I would say trust the process and just don't hold any expectations, because if I took a time machine, even back like five years ago when I was starting my company and I was like, hey, in five years, you're not going to be shooting anything, you're going to be doing VR and 3D art and making things in unreal Engine.

00:45:23:00 - 00:45:46:04
Unknown
I would have been like, wait, what I thought I was going to be doing? Like I had a completely different projection of my my route five years ago. And it is to say it is 182. It's, is nothing short of or it's not it's not an exaggeration. It's like it has completely yes, completely 180. I'm still doing what I love, but it's manifested itself in a very different way than I ever could have imagined.

00:45:46:04 - 00:46:20:19
Unknown
So trust the process. Don't let yourself be bogged down by your expectations, and just be open minded and explore life like a curious child would. And you will be surprised at what happened. And did you have any, any other advice in general for somebody who wants to pursue a creative path? I would say. Just try stuff.

00:46:20:21 - 00:46:46:01
Unknown
Just if you if you're even remotely interested, try it. Like the amount of people that I know though, like, oh man, I would love to do this, but I can't or at the time, like you have the time, think about the amount of time you spend scrolling Instagram or TikTok or messing around like like there are very few people in this world that I would say don't have time to like, try something like at least a few times a week.

00:46:46:03 - 00:47:06:19
Unknown
So if you have time, like the internet is full of free and available resources to like, learn how to do a number of things, like the world is all of our oysters. We all have access to ChatGPT in some way or fashion. You can always ask it for help. I ask ChatGPT for help every single day with the stuff that I do.

00:47:06:21 - 00:47:26:15
Unknown
And I learn every day. And yeah, the the world. Everybody's oyster. It's up to you to do with it what you will. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being my first guest and for taking the time to talk with me today. It was my pleasure. Thank you.

00:47:27:03 - 00:47:38:06
Unknown
thank you so much for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. And if you would like to keep up with Evan and his projects, I will leave his information in the show notes.

00:47:38:06 - 00:47:50:04
Unknown
Do do.